The Mana World Forums

Apologies for deleting the content previously here. It's been made clear to me the stock response of "go do your own" is at hand regarding any quest content. I think that is a rather sad, dismaying response that has plagued this game for years. Those who act as in control then wonder why they lose players.

Well, if more content could be brought into game, maybe it would bring more players. Alas, anyone writing stories for quests faces "we're busy", "go do it yourself". We the content writers are not "in charge" of the servers, the coding. Some of us don't know how the server is coded or how to write Python to do back ends for quests.

And we've no desire to learn it. That's not why we're here as players, or in some cases were here. Because there are those who are "in charge" of such things. We understand you have lives too, we understand you're volunteering. What we don't understand is a blatant refusal to even look at new content. And yes, that's what "we're too busy", "go do it yourself" equates to being.

We also understand you desire players to cooperate, to participate. We understand you want people to contribute. Well, some of us offer what contribution we can do, it's refused. This is the big disconnect and it's sad because it has been stock and trade since at leat 2004. One would think after 16 years someone wouldn't be "too busy", or that "those in charge" could see past whatever is in their view and refusing content offered freely. It's offered freely to advance the game for all players.

Unfortunately that's not the case. It makes me rather sad because I actually like the game in principle. It's a nice game and has so much more potential, but it won't grow. Everyone "in charge" is too busy or will say you can do it yourself. In fact the only way to do it yourself is to set up your own local private server. Which completely ruins the game and the spirit of it.

So, I'll not post any more quests nor complain any further. I may at times be in game but I'm not bothered to talk to anyone really. Why bother when "those in charge" have their little cliques and no one goes out of their way to welcome others. But that in itself is another problem. The game once was quiet friendly and welcoming. Ah, I guess losing players does that.

One other minor point for consideration. Yes I'm sure developers are busy with the coding. They enjoy coding lest they'd not dive into it willingly. Much the same is and can be said for writing stories. storytellers love telling stories. That aside we all need to live life as well. Why is it alright to presume storytellers are not busy too? Yet we all as players, content creators dare not presume developers are not busy? It's a double standard and hypocritical. Ah well, I hope the game can grow but as it stands I don't see it.

No, I won't rewrite the quest for Acorn Flour. Posted it once and then well, ... So, why bother?

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 Those who act as in control then wonder why they lose players.

Corona chan is bringing them back. However there aren't so many Game Masters around and people have they very own real life issues expecially now that there's a pandemic outbreak. I prefer not to see too many players around honestly.
I'm not hearing from players that used to be here a lot anymore and even my messages seems not to reach them.

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 Well, if more content could be brought into game, maybe it would bring more players. Alas, anyone writing stories for quests faces "we're busy", "go do it yourself". We the content writers are not "in charge" of the servers, the coding. Some of us don't know how the server is coded or how to write Python to do back ends for quests.

Quests may be potential threats for game balance and requires lots of coding and testing before being deployed. Blue sage quest got a bug that prevented me and some other players getting the Grimoire.
And I already told you that TMW Legacy server is not going to be improved anymore like that. You better aim playing TMW2 instead that's being actively developed despite being far from perfect, that server has lots of interesting features. You may find someone interested in your proposals there.

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 What we don't understand is a blatant refusal to even look at new content. And yes, that's what "we're too busy", "go do it yourself" equates to being.

What you don't understand is that the original author of TMW Legacy (tmwAthena server) disappeared leaving no documentation but few japanese commented source code comments and that a multiplayer online game requires a lot of work just to keep it running up.
Developers themselves aren't able to immediately release nothing until is approved: that's usually a lengthy and complex process put up to maintain game balance and server stability. In case of failure developers are busy analyzing logs to find out a solution or increase server security as well. I can assure you that dealing with logs and bugs in game is not making you willing to have more job to do by implementing new things as well.
Do it yourself... Yes, because if you are able to do it you can prove that you have something else more than words to contribute with and if your content got approved you may even lessen job load on developers.

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 We also understand you desire players to cooperate, to participate. We understand you want people to contribute. Well, some of us offer what contribution we can do, it's refused.

That doesn't mean giving away ideas only.
Even if actually I'm developing a bot I have lots of bad time dealing with bot abusers and rule enforcement. If someone else is able to immediately change my bot code without any mean of control I will be the first and the only one to be in troubles for that.
I don't know and I didn't worked on TMW server but I expect that facing a Game Master is nothing compared to facing an entire community if something goes wrong.

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 This is the big disconnect and it's sad because it has been stock and trade since at leat 2004.

You aren't going to help nobody acting like that. Your experience will not help new players and you are not helping yourself having fun.

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 One would think after 16 years someone wouldn't be "too busy", or that "those in charge" could see past whatever is in their view and refusing content offered freely. It's offered freely to advance the game for all players. Unfortunately that's not the case.

We are still changing computer and phones more than underwear since 1990 but mainly we do the same things all over the decades in many other ways. I don't know how you could expect TMW to change into a bunch of developers with lots of spare time while being not endorsed by companies and silly trends. I believe that even get approved as a TMW developer is not so easy at all.

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 It makes me rather sad because I actually like the game in principle. It's a nice game and has so much more potential, but it won't grow.

You are wrong. I believe that the game is growing just like an abandoned child with no parents in one of the worst internet ghettos feeding itself of trash from corporations restaurants fighting stray animals and tightening zip ties on his arm not to bleed. Growning stronger but slowly.

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 Everyone "in charge" is too busy or will say you can do it yourself. In fact the only way to do it yourself is to set up your own local private server. Which completely ruins the game and the spirit of it.

Nope. You will provide yourself a sandbox where you are free to do whatever you want without real world issues in it.
And if your server is not private you will be even an administrator of your own TMW game where you can finally learn what does it mean to get burned because you will be forced to touch the fire.
You will not ruin game spirit because you may attract more players, contributor and developers to you and you may even see your content on other servers as well just like happened in TMW2 where LOF village was saved from an abandoned server.
That's just one of many examples you can see around.

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 So, I'll not post any more quests nor complain any further.

Bad for the first, good for the second one.

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 I may at times be in game but I'm not bothered to talk to anyone really.

That's not the spirit behind a MMORPG.

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 Why bother when "those in charge" have their little cliques and no one goes out of their way to welcome others. But that in itself is another problem.

They welcome people when people behave like being interested in playing instead of begging and bothering. In TMW2 the server itself announces new players inviting people online to help. Even a free teleporting spell is provided for that.

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 The game once was quiet friendly and welcoming. Ah, I guess losing players does that.

Even society itself was more like that. Since we grow with consumerism trends we usually never get happy with what we do or have.
And losing players that idles, bothers or abuse because they are unhappy or bored it's not a bad thing at all.

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 Why is it alright to presume storytellers are not busy too?

Yes. Storytellers are busy inventing stories, formatting documents, imagining medias and so on...
But they unlikely meet the troubles of fixing bugs, security breaches, dealing with game rules, follow strict deployment procedures, ensure code quality, maintaining systems updated and so on...

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 Yet we all as players, content creators dare not presume developers are not busy? It's a double standard and hypocritical.

That's hypocrite to me is getting offended for having the coffee cool down when none asked for it...

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 Ah well, I hope the game can grow but as it stands I don't see it.

I'm not even able to see what GM, EC and Guild leaders face by full filling their duties. I can only ask questions. Sometimes I don't even get answer from someone that's busy or in a bad mood. I can only try again later if I really care.

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 No, I won't rewrite the quest for Acorn Flour. Posted it once and then well, ... So, why bother?

Thanks for your story contributions. I believe that it's going to searched when interest is shown about it and times are good for improving quests (probably not on legacy of course.

For the record, what _Cordo_ (Cordo) suggested was making Acorn Flour, which could be mashed up in Tulimshar Bakery. 3 Acorns would make 1 Flour, but you would need to pay a "tax" to use the baker's equipment.

So 5 Acorns = 1 Acorn Flour.

This flour could then be used to bake two things, a cupcake-like stuff which I dunno the name and a dought.


Currently, for rEvolt, we're making a cooking system.
You can only cook sandwiches currently, because the cooking code was finished, but art is more complicated.

I mean, we already have art for butter (from HaloNott) and a "couple" other cooking stuff (like boiled eggs, lettuce, bread). Even if we have no flour yet.
The worst, however, is that we don't have the art for the finished products. (And we're not much of a fan of lame recolors)

Of course, after that comes balancing, which requires even more manpower (as we need to test stuff etc.)
If you can't make a private server, too, we DEVs will have to test stuff by ourselves. This is not only tiring and problematic, but it also takes our time which could be spent on other things.
One of those "other things" include not only coding our own personal projects, but also family time and other really important things.

I was actually thinking in moving it to the correct forum (Dev Academy or Content Development, I hadn't decided), but if it is only drama I'll leave it at Player Talk.

Livio wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 18:25people have they very own real life issues expecially now that there's a pandemic outbreak.

Don't presume that I'm unaware of current events, or lack understanding of others having lives. I am aware of current events. I do understand other people have lives. So, please do not even infer that I am unaware, or callously uncaring of the lives of others. I am quite compassionate, understanding, tolerant, empathetic, sympathetic of these issues. I'm not someone who feels entitled as inferring I'm not aware, or uncaring may paint me out to be. It's not nice of you to infer that and seems to me as a slap in the face.

Livio wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 18:25I'm not hearing from players that used to be here a lot anymore and even my messages seems not to reach them.

Then you understand part of my disillusionment and feeling out of place. I too do not seem to find my "old" friends on these "new" servers. It is difficult for me to befriend anyone. There's many reasons for this, in a nutshell it boils down to having survived a lot of harshness in life. That kind of gives a person a sense of being a bit warped and a little on edge towards people in general. My apologies I am that way, I do work on being better socially but it is an ongoing process.

Livio wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 18:25Quests may be potential threats for game balance and requires lots of coding and testing before being deployed. Blue sage quest got a bug that prevented me and some other players getting the Grimoire.
And I already told you that TMW Legacy server is not going to be improved anymore like that. You better aim playing TMW2 instead that's being actively developed despite being far from perfect, that server has lots of interesting features. You may find someone interested in your proposals there.

Again you're making presumptions. i apologize that I do not wear a billboard with my past history regarding TMW. Breifly, I was a former GM on Land of Fire. I worked with Pyndragon some to create a couple of quests. I know how to write "story" so that it appears as pseudo code. Pyndragon could then more readily convert it to XML which the python needed for the DB and MYSQL "magic" to happen.

I do not code with this project. To me the coding for it appears illegible, as I have difficulty reading functions. I also get confused with a lot of the variables, arrays, pointers. The code in short to me appears a mish mash of too many languages. it is chaos waiting to explode, or so it seems to me. I don't want to poke something and trigger that explosion.

"What did you do?"

"um, dunno. Erm just tweaked that but um it shouldn't have ..."

"Idiot that was the big red button to end the world."

"No, it wasn't labelled 'Don't Push'."

Nope, not the argument, hassle I desire nor the responsibility. This is me knowing my limits and setting my boundaries.

And I understand it is vetting process involved. I genuinely do. I also understand people get busy with various bits.

My point is it has been the same for sixteen years. One tries to help but it's refused with "we're busy" or "go do it yourself". Sixteen years and you all are still busy with one little bit, section of code? C'mon. I know there's quality cares but when something works, let it be, when it breaks fix it and go on to the next thing. Is it all breaking, all the time? If so, rebuild it so it works. Ah, maybe that's what you're doing? Nope, keeps breaking. *sighs* ...

I understand and am patient, tolerating, but ... there is a point when "we're busy" or "do it yourself" become a slap in the face too.

Livio wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 18:25What you don't understand is that the original author of TMW Legacy (tmwAthena server) disappeared leaving no documentation but few japanese commented source code comments and that a multiplayer online game requires a lot of work just to keep it running up.
Developers themselves aren't able to immediately release nothing until is approved: that's usually a lengthy and complex process put up to maintain game balance and server stability. In case of failure developers are busy analyzing logs to find out a solution or increase server security as well. I can assure you that dealing with logs and bugs in game is not making you willing to have more job to do by implementing new things as well.
Do it yourself... Yes, because if you are able to do it you can prove that you have something else more than words to contribute with and if your content got approved you may even lessen job load on developers.

You might be surprised with what I do understand. Again though you keep pushing presumptions and again, I see it as a slap in the face and start to dislike your tone of conversation. I think my dislike is warranted too. I'm a forty eight year old man, not a child.

Do not debase me with your presumptions and inferences that I lack comprehension of the situation overall, or individual cases. Doing so only weakens any case you attempt to use as explaining to me the intricacies of the process of development requiring time. My point is I know since 2004 I've been hearing the same two "excuses" to refuse even offering to help as a coder with a writer. The only one who did so with me was Pyndrangon as I pointed out before.

as a writer I do not access the coding or the admin process. To me that is for those who do enjoy coding, developing and being "in charge". Now, to me after sixteen years of the same responses, it appears no one actually does anything of the sort. I mean, sixteen years, huh? You can't ask one or two developers to work with writer's? You can't be welcoming to people with stories which may fit the theme? Nah, "we're too busy", "do it yourself".

And I have met with a developer half way and did it myself some. This is what Pyndragon was teaching me as he learned more about story from me. It was a nice relationship. So, I know it can happen. Instead of being "too busy" or saying "do it yourself", you might try reaching out.

Livio wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 18:25That doesn't mean giving away ideas only.
...

Stories are more than ideas. They provide us with means to entertain, inform, educate, come together socially. Words can create worlds, this is part of their magic. If you doubt it ask some of the following. George Lucas, Dashiell Hammett, Terry Pratchett, Neil Gaiman, Frank Miller, Stephen King, Dean Koontz, and I could continue listing them all day but i think you see my point. So please appreciate the gift I was willing to offer a bit more than relegating to a mere idea. Yes, there's an idea in a store but likely quite many ideas. thought creates ideas, quests create ideas, put stories together with quests well there you go, you start forming ideas yourself. Oh but it is so much more than just the common ... idea.

Livio wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 18:25They welcome people when people behave like being interested in playing instead of begging and bothering. In TMW2 the server itself announces new players inviting people online to help. Even a free teleporting spell is provided for that.

Well obviously if there were fresh content and a balanced game, stuff for mid level players to get interested in, then perhaps one would not to voice requests. It's not begging to ask for new content, or to ask to help by offering new content.

That you see it as such only proves out the unwelcoming sentiment i observe, and have observed all this time. I did not expect anything from developers, admin sorts being honest. Though when one visits and enjoys the game quite a while and tries to no real avail to engage and be welcome to offer content so long, it might seem there'd be some change.I mean it's only logical to think change happens. i know I've changed over the decades. I had hoped the environment of TMW development had as well.

Now, let me explain something too. I posted my story here in similar pseudo code like I used to for Pyndragon. In game before you even saw my story, or how I'd laid out the minor quest, you began berating me that such contribution was worthless, that i ought to go do it myself, that everyone was busy. Ergo, I came here and took my story down. Why the beans should i bother if that's the response when you're not even bothered to look at a contribution?

Again, a slap in the face in both cases, that response and this one.

jesusalva wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 19:09I was actually thinking in moving it to the correct forum (Dev Academy or Content Development, I hadn't decided), but if it is only drama I'll leave it at Player Talk.

Ultimately your call. I release it freely in the free spirit of the game. If you use or do not, that's for you and those involved "behind the scenes". Thought it a straight forward, simple quest to perhaps offer a little something new for players.

I know you have fishing on Mouboo Legends, this is why I suggested the dough for bait. I wrote it to be portable for any of the various servers. Again, i only set up as pseudo code or like a cooking recipe. Pyndragon showed me to do that.

I might possibly write quests in XML if that is still used. I would leave the back end "magic" for the developers to call functions, hooks, arrays and what they needed to get it functional. My ideas for numbers of items are open to change according to dev or admin decisions, I'm only offering a variable or placeholder number. This is to help "make it go".

I'm very weary of databases. A former boyfriend does that kind of work for government entities. He expressed how databases can be nightmares. *chuckles* And he's a high level "Rock Star" coder, developer, trainer. So yeah I think I'll run away from the scary beasts. *chuckles* Again, don't want to be the poking it with a stick.

Livio, I wish to extend a humble and sincere apology to you.

1. Firstly, I did not intend my diatribe to be diatribe nor a personal attack of you or anyone.

2. Secondly, my intention was attacking the notion / idea / sentiment I've seemingly observed over the past few decades regarding this game.

3. Third, I'm also aware in text inflection is lost a good degree and communication properly requires that. If it lacks it then it can appear one is indeed attacking someone personally. Again my intention was to not personally attack. Livio is not an enemy to me. I too can admit I may have misread the infection in communication to me. This left me feeling they were as I state "slapping me in the face". I do not know that they were and cannot hold to any resentment or hard feelings.

4. Finally, I do hope my apology here can offer me a bit of grace. I also apologize to other players for appearing to cause drama over seemingly nothing. My apologies but there are principles involved for me that seemed to merit addressing. I can see from this conversation that addressing them is akin to beating a dead horse. I will weigh this and consider my course onward. Either way I do apologize if there was disruption. I sincerely wanted only to address the issue/s with conversation on common ground. Again sorry if I allowed it to be a bit out of hand.

Don't worry I'm not feeling offended by you.
I appreciate really much that you are the one who in the benefits of doubt walks backwards in his very own steps.

About "making presumptions" well, I can only tell what I know about this game but since I'm an active player since Feb 2018 and I cannot say that my opinions and information are 100% correct. Even answering before someone involved in TMW does (if done correctly ofc) can avoid them other work load on them so I try to contribute for what I'm able to do...
And about me, well... I cannot say that I'm a very good shape, I'm not sleeping fine and I constantly switch doing different things sometimes I got confused and ask questions twice... I have to read posts again and again since I got distracted easily.
We are through that I believe is the worst period for TMW and our lives.

So, we only need to rest a bit and find solutions step by step without rushing.

Talking about stories I had some in my mind that I would like to develop but I've never talked to none since it's not possible to realize it right now. I was thinking about a game story before the actual TMW Legacy being inspired by the one on TMW2 that confused me on how much time has been passed from legacy.

Livio wrote: ↑04 May 2020, 05:42 Don't worry I'm not feeling offended by you.
I appreciate really much that you are the one who in the benefits of doubt walks backwards in his very own steps.

Have learned as I've grown in life some basic concepts which serve me and others well.

1. in any given situation objective and pure truth gets lost.

2. In same, there are no less than three sides with vastly differing details, sides A,B,C.

3. Sides A, and B usually come from two human beings who are nature subjective, Side C may be sandwiched by them and as near objective and pure truth any will see.

4. Human beings in seeing subjective may discolour truth either knowingly, or not. This is human nature ergo, happens naturally as does one or more of side A and B being in error.

5. Knowing these facts, it is better to own your part of error and learn from it, move forward. In owning your part of messing up you voice it clearly and apologize and take responsibility, act maturely, intelligently, rationally. You become better than yourself.

A quick nut shell, it's wiser to know you can mess up but admit it and learn, grow from a mistake than to cling to denying you could ever be wrong. More than likely you my be wrong simply in how you perceive whatever. I'm reminded of five blind men describing an elephant by touch. Which of them were wrong or correct? You may say none were correct, or none were wrong, saying anything further can only make you clean up elephant dung. After all they've moved on to describing lunch by smell.

Glad to know I didn't offend, still apologize because I felt out of line myself for perhaps seeing the elephants side as a barn wall. It is still an elephant's side regardless of how I saw it. That happens. i know it does too. So, own it and learn.

I empathize with both sides. I feel I have been you Cordo back in 2015 or even before. I've seen the mess to deal with, but feel over ambition of the dev team is partly to blame. Requests can seem like insults if not realized someone may be trying to help. License issues that never should have been issues halted or slowed progress. Remaking things already made slowed progress and though I hate to say it, working on the Legacy server is also slowing progress. I'd like to delve into the Hercules world and immerse myself in something new, but I'm scared it will be less RPG than now. I have major concerns that many players have shared. In fact, I'm a little amazed that I came back and immediately got so involved again, but that is how addictive TMW is.
I don't think the players want a whole new world or better pixel art.
I will give one example of how the saga is already lost a bit; Mylarin Dust. Cerhan tells us that if we ever bring him the stuff, he'll make us fantastic armour with it and today he still gets excited when he sees it. 15 yrs pass and Cerhan is still out of commission, but yet a playboy bunny appears in the past where she never was before. No clues from Cerhan or any other character. You find out either by pure chance or by asking a player with a sand cutter where they got it. If they by chance had Mylarin Dust on them when they went to see that bunny-gal, then we know it is only because someone knew it was there from the code and most likely a dev. SO, RPGs need to have clues and old things shouldn't be left hanging like that. players get confused, especially if they are new and they just assume (correctly) that things are a bit broken.
I was really glad to see the Wumpus egg make an appearance. I just wish poor Auldsbel could have seen it since he was the NPC that told us about it.
In short, Cordo we spoke in game for a loooong time and if you have ideas, the best I can offer is to try and make it a quest based on current NPC dialogues in Hercules for rEvolt. It's hard to have ambition though when I am so unsure of what is to come and will RPG fans be okay with it. IDK myself till I play, I think, but I sure wish old things got some sort of closure. There are more examples like this. It's not a dis to anyone, just that many players know their stuff. Might help to ask them about things a bit more often especially when it comes to story lines and such.

Ledmitz wrote: ↑04 May 2020, 13:22In short, Cordo we spoke in game for a loooong time and if you have ideas, the best I can offer is to try and make it a quest based on current NPC dialogues in Hercules for rEvolt. It's hard to have ambition though when I am so unsure of what is to come and will RPG fans be okay with it. IDK myself till I play, I think, but I sure wish old things got some sort of closure. There are more examples like this. It's not a dis to anyone, just that many players know their stuff. Might help to ask them about things a bit more often especially when it comes to story lines and such.

Indeed we did talk quite a while. Think we're both highly disappointed in that there seems no clear direction, or seeming leadership to guide by. One thing I not all too often seeing is an appearance of too many chiefs and not enough indians (referring to what is now called Native Americans not those from India).

For me it comes back to a desire to help all players. Do not even require any gesture of gratitude. Would be more than enough to know possibly some bit of a story I scrawled may help the game overall grow, entertain, teach, be of value to players. That is reward a plenty to me, maybe someone smiles because a story is there.

Though I know too many cannot comprehend such pure and genuinely sincere altruism living in the big old nasty world in which we live. Wish I could put into the words the feeling of elation it it brings serving in that way. Can only present it as I did to you, discussing serving as an E.M.T and returning a few patients back to living. It is such a different form of "high" to feel that any kind of self medication could not compare.

That same feeling comes in serving to help others via things like this game. It is a freely open game, free to remake completely if one desires. I come here (to the game) oh, roughly 2002 to 2004 or so. Even then I met with our favourite excuses. Ha! My browser uses Brit English. Not sure the Debian repo has American English. No matter, it's legible, intelligible. If I can manage to keep it so. *grin* And it's sad that an environment of the community for the game, player, development, administration aspects all inclusive has not seemed to mature past that in nearly twenty years.

I think many ought to go back the bare origins of the original story, refresh their reading, memory. i do at times and get filled with wonder, awe that people cared enough to create this amazing gift for everyone. Let reiterate that, this game was created for everyone. It was not created for the developers, not for the administrators, not for the players. It wasn't created for this or that religion, for this or that sexual orientation, this or that age group, nope none of these mattered, it was for everyone. :)It was a story about a world you wake in and you're the protagonist.

From there your asked if you recall anything of life. There's been a grand schism that's disrupted the whole world. They've been saving people and setting the back to some kind of normalcy, whatever that entailed for each person. You're given some basics, all that can be spared given current happenings in the world. You ask what you can do to help and are told to talk to people and ask, do favours, earn gifts and rewards, make your way through a chaotic world and life. Have fun! By the way we got magic and cookies but you need to explore to figure things out. Good luck!

"Magic even? Oh wow! Maybe I can summon a mouboo and whisk myself to this Mana World I keep hearing whispered about by the "old timers" in hushed tones."

"What's a mouboo?"

"Well I don't know but it seems it might be a magic creature. I should go check it out!"

The story in its original form does itself far more justice than I do here paraphrasing from memory. It left me happy, excited and wanting unite with a wonderful community all willing, able and free to come together and help one another, help the game and its world. ... And then, ... I saw the reality and it was no beautiful day in the park.

No, it was bickering, back stabbing, blaming, and our favourite excuses. Everyone wants credit, wants "more". I know it is human nature to desire feeling good. Knowing that does not let me excuse egotism, my own included. "Hey, wake up it's only a game. A game is something you play as distraction to have fun. Enjoy it. If you start feeling bad over it, walk away a bit." And these are words I told my nephews. They both relaxed then and realized games were fun, not hard work, not a need to get bent out of shape over petty differences.

Alas but to dream, I know.

So, a spiky mushroom nearly got me on my way here. But it's all good, i let a bat distract it while i found a chicken leg and clubbed it over the head.

Ledmitz wrote: ↑04 May 2020, 13:22 15 yrs pass and Cerhan is still out of commission, but yet a playboy bunny appears in the past where she never was before. No clues from Cerhan or any other character. You find out either by pure chance or by asking a player with a sand cutter where they got it. If they by chance had Mylarin Dust on them when they went to see that bunny-gal, then we know it is only because someone knew it was there from the code and most likely a dev. SO, RPGs need to have clues and old things shouldn't be left hanging like that. players get confused, especially if they are new and they just assume (correctly) that things are a bit broken.

From what I know about the "playboy bunny" you meant, that's probably a NPC inspired by one of kytty's alt.
Nobody asked about Cerhan (even me) when that sword appeared so I believe that players generally cares more about exercising violence on monsters instead of living a story in TMW.
If you read the sword description it seems that is the favorite weapon of never seen in Legacy server "desert night warriors".
Nor desert warrior nor nights are actually in Legacy server but in TMW2 so I believe that probably Jesusalva was not keeping into account the story of Legacy TMW. However I believe that, until it requires big changes to do, story issues may be fixed in some way. Maybe like Cerhan getting mad at a girl that stole his weapons... I don't know...

Livio wrote: ↑04 May 2020, 22:45

Ledmitz wrote: ↑04 May 2020, 13:22 15 yrs pass and Cerhan is still out of commission, but yet a playboy bunny appears in the past where she never was before. No clues from Cerhan or any other character. You find out either by pure chance or by asking a player with a sand cutter where they got it. If they by chance had Mylarin Dust on them when they went to see that bunny-gal, then we know it is only because someone knew it was there from the code and most likely a dev. SO, RPGs need to have clues and old things shouldn't be left hanging like that. players get confused, especially if they are new and they just assume (correctly) that things are a bit broken.

From what I know about the "playboy bunny" you meant, that's probably a NPC inspired by one of kytty's alt.
Nobody asked about Cerhan (even me) when that sword appeared so I believe that players generally cares more about exercising violence on monsters instead of living a story in TMW.
If you read the sword description it seems that is the favorite weapon of never seen in Legacy server "desert night warriors".
Nor desert warrior nor nights are actually in Legacy server but in TMW2 so I believe that probably Jesusalva was not keeping into account the story of Legacy TMW. However I believe that, until it requires big changes to do, story issues may be fixed in some way. Maybe like Cerhan getting mad at a girl that stole his weapons... I don't know...

Oh no no, I just did not knew about Cerhan's existence.
+ He offers an armor, not a weapon. (Which is weird, because he is a weapon master O.o)

Anyway, I've already ammended the dialogs, and addressed two from the plot holes. Thanks for reporting. (Cerhan was written by Jenalya long long ago... I can only imagine it was for Savior Armor, perhaps? Nevermind.)

PS. I'm aware these changes are actually overriding old content ideas which unfortunately may never see daylight. For example, both the original Enchanter's Amulet as Wumpus Egg used to be on Sagatha's Tier 4~5 magic. Mylarin Dust was meant for an armor. Evoker Robe was meant for another quest as well. Assassin Set was not originally designed for brawling. The list goes on and on and on, with all half-implemented features we ever did....

Cordo wrote: ↑03 May 2020, 09:33 It's been made clear to me the stock response of "go do your own" is at hand regarding any quest content. I think that is a rather sad, dismaying response that has plagued this game for years. Those who act as in control then wonder why they lose players.

This is an open source project run by people giving their time for free. Ideally, you'd be able to ask developers for things and you still are, but the reason I will mostly tell you to "do it yourself" is because I know that it is the best way to introduce new people to developing for the game. This is something we always desperately need. I never mean it to be discouraging for people who ask for new content, I try to encourage them to take part in it themselves.

"Those who act as in control" simply understand the demands of our current development roadmap and, like you, love this game and try to do what is best for it. I have personally never "refused" content from anyone and I don't know of any developer who has. If this has been your experience, I hope it was not with any of the current developers. You reference the 16 years of history of this game, but I need to point out that the current people on the team have not led development on this game until late 2016 and some are even newer.

We're also torn with the fact that many players present us with content for a server that cannot be developed much further and all developers are putting effort into a server that has a future beyond the limited updates we can bring to tmwAthena. If people were more interested in developing things that work with what is being prepared for the next release, I BEG THEM to come to us with anything they've got. Otherwise, you're welcome to continue to contribute to tmwAthena (Legacy server), but you can understand how a collection of random items and half-written quests for an obsolete server a game does not make.

Post your contributions on the forums. They will be seen. They will ALWAYS be considered. If it doesn't fit now, it may be useful later. We're still digging out things from 10 years ago that people who probably forgot about TMW had made and thought would end up unused. This is the nature of Open Source: it's often a mess. I understand the problems you point out, but it's not something we can fix. It's a constant effort to maitain consistency. I've literally made it my job here to make sure content doesn't get lost and developers can work towards a unified goal.

WildX wrote: ↑05 May 2020, 20:26 We're also torn with the fact that many players present us with content for a server that cannot be developed much further and all developers are putting effort into a server that has a future beyond the limited updates we can bring to tmwAthena. If people were more interested in developing things that work with what is being prepared for the next release, I BEG THEM to come to us with anything they've got. Otherwise, you're welcome to continue to contribute to tmwAthena (Legacy server), but you can understand how a collection of random items and half-written quests for an obsolete server a game does not make.

Post your contributions on the forums. They will be seen. They will ALWAYS be considered. If it doesn't fit now, it may be useful later. We're still digging out things from 10 years ago that people who probably forgot about TMW had made and thought would end up unused. This is the nature of Open Source: it's often a mess. I understand the problems you point out, but it's not something we can fix. It's a constant effort to maitain consistency. I've literally made it my job here to make sure content doesn't get lost and developers can work towards a unified goal.

WildX wrote: ↑05 May 2020, 20:26 We're also torn with the fact that many players present us with content for a server that cannot be developed much further and all developers are putting effort into a server that has a future beyond the limited updates we can bring to tmwAthena. If people were more interested in developing things that work with what is being prepared for the next release, I BEG THEM to come to us with anything they've got.

And therein lies why some story writers might feel a disconnect as I do.

Quests like the one proposed use standard items which seem to carry over from this or that version of a server. We do so to be portable. The quest I proposed may have require one new graphic file for a new item, even then I think Gem Powder pouches could be re-purposed, create a new [Acorn Flour Pouch] item. The rest could be from re-purposed graphics as well, [Acorn Cake/Biscuit] could use [Orange cupcake] graphic, [Acorn Dough] possibly a [Whit Slime] re-purposed but tan coloured.

I'm sure the scripting/coding can be used to keep tally of player inventory counts. Any baker type of NPC could run the simple recipe to teach a player to use the bakery to create Acorn flour, acorn dough, acorn cakes. There's nothing requiring any particular version of TMW server type, this is stuff that's carried over from this or that server. I've observed, it's something writers do. Using that I see minor quests here and there which might help advance storyline overall.

In essence it's not seeming to me to be anything out of line for any version of server. But yet of course, that's part and parcel adding to the overall seeming "excuses". "We're upgrading to a new server." LOF had to upgrade too, before that TMW, Evol and on and on the upgrades come.

And yes I understand that upgrades are part of development cycles. i also understand from Emacs, the newest version is not always any better than the one three versions ago. I'm sure even you are aware of what I'm saying here. New isn't always better, more is not always better. And of course, better isn't always better. That's just how life goes.

But yes, my minor quest was rather static. It was in such a way to remain portable. It could fit into a larger storyline or merely be a subplot to any other storyline. It was something which was a cog in a wheel.

WildX wrote: ↑05 May 2020, 20:26This is the nature of Open Source: it's often a mess. I understand the problems you point out, but it's not something we can fix. It's a constant effort to maitain consistency. I've literally made it my job here to make sure content doesn't get lost and developers can work towards a unified goal.

I understand this and the spirit of inclusiveness in encouraging people to help develop. My point is though I do not want involved with the back end coding. Sure, I might like writing stories. I can do that, can create some quests and set them up as recipes / algorithms in a format as such that developers can read as pseudo code and transfer over to code readily. Beyond that, I'm not interested in coding and should not feel such a need to do so to just offer stories / story freely. And the push for inclusion by the excuses or expressions of "do it yourself" or "we're busy" get frustrating. So while I do understand it is quite discouraging nonetheless. So much so it makes me consider to not bother offering any contribution and merely being a player, even that may even come to an end.

Think of it this way, you develop and enjoy doing so, you code and enjoy it. Suppose you come to my mechanics shop and said you thought you knew a way to improve car performance but didn't want to get your hands dirty wrenching on cars. Well, if you want your improvements done, sorry but while I'm a mechanic, "I'm busy" and besides if you want it done right, "do it yourself". See how that comes over? And sure maybe you pay a mechanic, maybe for what you pay they'll happily bump other projects. Still I think my point is valid and you can see where I am with it. In short we each do what we like, have help doing what we don't. Not everyone wants be a mechanic.

And no I'm not a mechanic either. i used that as an alteration, a bit of story illustrating a precept / concept / idea. That's what storytellers and writers do, as well try to communicate if we can get out of our own heads a bit. *chuckles* And that can at times be difficult, even if we do exercise empathy and try the "put yourself in another's shoes" idea.

Well, you don't have to take the "do it yourself" as "I'm not going to even look at this". If you want it done right away, the best thing to do is doing it yourself, but good ideas are not forgotten regardless. Like anything else I see on these forums, your idea is taken on board and as soon as I see time for it and I know it won't just be kept on hold forever, I'll squeeze it into our todo list.

I could put this right now on GitLab and add to the next milestone, but I know that it will just make the next release take longer and it will likely sit there uncompleted for months. We have a surplus of really great ideas and a deficit of people with the time and skills to make those ideas into a reality. Is it disheartening? Yes. Not just for you, but for developers as well. The most annoying part is that all it would take is one or two new developers and things would be very different.

Now, I really liked LoF and Pihro had great ideas for it. It's also the prime example of what I'm telling you here. LoF could not continue, like many other forks, because it planned too big and never grew into those plans. Evol may have been really small (it's one small island and one city) but it was proportionate to the size of its team. All other plans and ideas remained in our notebooks until the day they could be made into something. Right now, for TMW, everything that is a good suggestion but not an NPC script will have to go into my notebook.

I believe that's not the first time people asked for similar explanations. We should improve a FAQ section with all these threads.