The Mana World Forums

So, do you use betsanc/asorm? If yes, when? If not, why not?
Do you use them on yourself, on others, or on both?
Do you use only one or both?

I want to purge detsanc, for that I need to either restrict it to party only (advised, but TMWA has no real parties ─ only guilds and clans), or to modify betsanc. Asorm by extension.

So I want to hear what people who use (or don't use) them think about these skills. Then later we'll discuss that with other devs and decide what we'll do.

And before a certain annoying person starts spurting nonsense about Evolved: I could bring betsanc as-is to Evolved. I didn't because I don't want detsanc to exist; that's why I locked it to same-party-or-guild on Evolved. It is not a bug, it is a design decision.

But seems like people don't want this lock. So betsanc, asorm and etc. may need changes. Or I'll need to change my mind regarding detsanc and add it anyway. Or players will need to change their minds.

To make clear, my current draft is to port TMWA parties as guilds. You can have one party, one guild and one clan*. Creating parties and guilds is free. Creating clans* require TMWT authorization and at least five players demanding it, so no change in how stuff currently work.

This is different from how Christmas 2021 was. There would be a new feature, "parties", made for raiding dungeons or doing quests together, and which would start from a blank slate. Which is how they were originally designed to be used. And current parties, which behave like guilds, would become de-facto guilds. And CRC would be promoted to use the Clan System* as it has outgrown what a guild is or should be and imo would work better in something bigger. This would require some fixes to Clan System*, though.

Other "guilds" simply aren't active enough to be worth preserving; At most, I would give them a memorial wiki page.

However, I want TMWA to reproduce the behavior on Evolved and vice-versa, so if it relies on new features, I may still need to add bandages to TMWA, hence the need for comments.

*: We'll find a better name than "Clan", I promise. The leading suggestion is "Super Guild", but this haven't been discussed yet, let alone decided

1) I use betsanc a lot on both self (under most battle conditions except safest) - and on other random players, as they ask for it, as they run monsters in hard battles, or when battle situation gets too hot, crowd falls back and I see tanks have it hard. As for detsanc its ugly hack that only exist due to betsanc malus on atk speed been abused by some players exceeding PvE paradigm. As idea, if malus removed, no reason for detsanc to exist, not even on TMWA. Whether its good idea is deabatable, obvious effect is "support mage services" would be in more demand as now some players just hate betsanc due to atk speed malus, betsanc is hybrid bonus-malus spell.

2) Asorm ... very rarely used by me because that's where TMW (at least on TMWA) mechanic is sorta broken: it IIRC got no real effect vs whatever monster "magic" attacks (e.g. witch/enchanter/etc), and PvP isn't what I'd call balanced so overall asorm got very limited use, mostly to protect self in PvP cave. Casting it on others is exotic. IMO rare use of this thing is a sign of deeper game mechanic bugs. This spell also known to ruin PvP balance further by bansheers casting weak but working asorm on self becominging nearly unbeatable in PvP vs mages.

3) As such I've used both but in farily different manner outlined above.

I use betsanc all the time when on a mage or on a upmarmu only brawler.
It would be bad if you only could betsanc party members on so many places where ppl play together someone wants betsanc and now we must always form a party for every little betsanc? That makes no sense. I often betsanc players who ask on a swamp jump or illia run now we must make a party invitation spree every time just to get them protected. Detsanc is good as it is if you don't want to be betsanced you cast it or can chancel a existing betsanc. Makes also no sense that normal attacks get slower with betsanc while upmarmu still runs at full speed or ingrav either decrase thier speed aswell or remove the speed limit.

I only used asorm once in pvp but i could change tmwa to support mattack for mobs I dont think its too hard. But how you know a mob uses a magic attack maybe over the element entry in mob db if its 0 its a normal attack or add a new entry element_attack/magic_user or simply a mattack entry if its > 0 calculate asorm absorb but how would the mattack calculated then, does it stack on top of the normal attack does a normal attack become an magic attack? Somehow something must be multiplicated with the mattack not sure what.

I use both on both myself and others. My beef is only with the duration of asorm... its too short, This will matter when monsters use magic attacks on evolved. I prefer to keep detsanc, but only because you can betsanc another by mistake and that can ruin a quest at times. It would be nice if players had to earn it like other spells/skills on evolved though if that helps any... ?

If you really want to purge detsanc, I think the only way to do it is to eliminate all spell penalties that are cast on others(they have no choice), which of course means something else has to change because everyone will always want a betsanc, which is why the speed penalty was included, I assume. How about an item instead? An item, like a ring or charm, can be easily put on for a moment to dispel possibly all magic? Then we can leave betsanc as it always was before. We just need to not make the item too hard to acquire so lower levels can also equip it.

I don't understand why this was split; Since the beginning the idea of the OP was to discuss how to purge detsanc command safely in a way it doesn't affects gameplay, starting by collecting data about if betsanc/asorm are even worth keeping around as is.

From what I understood, I could remove asorm overnight and only mages use betsanc, but in rare cases you need betsanc on runners or to rush past certain maps.

Zeroing attack power would work in both cases, same to zeroing dex and str, but neither solve the detsanc question.

Unsplit. It's more of a development thread overall then.

jesusalva wrote: ↑08 Feb 2023, 18:48

From what I understood, I could remove asorm overnight and only mages use betsanc, but in rare cases you need betsanc on runners or to rush past certain maps.

Zeroing attack power would work in both cases, same to zeroing dex and str, but neither solve the detsanc question.

IDK why the want/need for the detsanc purge in the first place. I assume its to comply with Evolved more. I mentioned before about diff types of casting. Could still use old style for some spells and use skills for other spells.
All classes can use betsanc and its even wise for non mages in many cases, especially for survival stuff like Candor. No need to zero anything. People still want to be able to hit things if needed. If its necessary to remove detsanc, then may as well remove the penalties from betsanc. I just don't know why detsanc would be desired to be removed at all.

And everyone wants an asorm in pvp situations. Its not a useless spell. Just mostly useless in most cases. It always bothered me due to the short duration.