respawning in crypt

[kereszte]

pretend this is a nice message.

who the heck decided that when you died in the crypt, it ported you to your life stone? are you ok? if it's not difficult enough to level up to 82.6 as hunter, now we need to deal with this???

are you actively trying to pigeon-hole everybody into terranite cave? this game is one-dimensional enough!!!!

that is all

[ThinkSome]

I don't like this change either.

And, to add insult to injury, we now have to wait 5 minutes after dying and before we can use a towel to get back. This is frustrating.

This was apparently part of some partially done changes? https://git.themanaworld.org/legacy/ser ... quests/638

[jesusalva]

The towel timer used to be 20 minutes. As we decided to revert the mess of you-don't-know-where-you-will-respawn, we also reduced the cooldown from 20 minutes to 5 minutes.

I will not point fingers, but someone also asked to remove the Menhir from Asphodel Moors and the request was approved (or at very least, unopposed actually, approved, it never ever had a towel color either way). So three changes in total.

According to my notes, part 2 would be to import auto-save feature from Evolved (so you don't need to touch them). As an optional setting, just like it is optional in Moubootaur Legends.

A few page longs of internal staff notes which I'll summarize here: Discussion to replace towel with Soul Menhir crystals, to add more ranged monsters, that ranged players should still need to put some points in luck/vitality (just like warriors), thousand complains about multiple colored towels being bugged (forced dye bug), KeepAfterUse being missing in TmwAthena (technical "proper" fix for the forced dye bug), about death potions and letting players use @die (very old discussion, for that matter), several notes about death penalty, and an overall consensus that being forced to walk is all death penalty TMW Classic should ever need.

[ThinkSome]

The cooldown reduction is nice, can't oppose that. I did not have them when they still had 20 mins cooldown. Preferrably there should not be a cool down at all. Why: I always viewed the towels as:

1) A way to get somewhere quicker (e.g. events)
2) A way to get somewhere easier (don't have to navigate through multiple maps and grass snakes on the way to gy, ..)

and that the cost of crafting them is the price we have to pay as compensation for this. I would say, based on the prices of towels & materials on offer that perhaps this price is too low and that as an experiment I propose:

1) Remove cooldown entirely
2) Increase un-dye chance from 1/15 to 1/10

and watch towel usage stats. You do have a way to see item use stats, right ??

Was "you-don't-know-where-you-will-respawn" a thing, given that you admit that there was no auto-save feature? Thus, from my understanding, you respawned at the last one that you touched.

A few page longs of internal staff notes which I'll summarize here: Discussion to replace towel with Soul Menhir crystals, to add more ranged monsters, that ranged players should still need to put some points in luck/vitality (just like warriors),

I don't think that discussing issues or future development behind closed doors is a good idea in a community project.

... being forced to walk ...

Not sure if frustrating players is a good idea. We're already paying a price on death - missing out on xp / boss points, having to use a towel (they're a bit cheap now, at least to me, but still).

[jesusalva]

and watch towel usage stats. You do have a way to see item use stats, right ??

This is TMWA, of course we don't have a way to see that.

You wouldn't respawn at Menhirs at all, before.

Internal discussions happen after public discussions, otherwise nothing would ever get done. Actually, even like that, nothing is ever done. Things only actually happen when someone with the required skills decide to do something.

Everything I mentioned has already been discussed publicly in the past, at least once.

There's no exp penalty in TMW Classic. Boss rooms have special respawn rules, I'm not sure if dying in them will respawn you in Hurnscald.

[ThinkSome]

This is TMWA, of course we don't have a way to see that.

Probably easy enough to make an item use log file.

Boss rooms have special respawn rules, I'm not sure if dying in them will respawn you in Hurnscald.

You respawn outside. If that wasn't the case then I'm sure that people would ragequit the game entirely. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if we lost some folks already. Myself as archer had to walk 2-3 times to boss room from hurns before I could make it.

[Rill]

… who the heck decided that when you died in the crypt, it ported you to your life stone? …

I don't like this change either. …

… I don't think that discussing issues or future development behind closed doors is a good idea in a community project. …

… Everything I mentioned has already been discussed publicly in the past, at least once. …

As far as I can recall, this was never discussed publicly before the change was made.

[poppet]

I like the old way better, as is , would be no fun to have a spawn party there.

[jesusalva]

Discussion to replace towel with Soul Menhir crystals,
viewtopic.php?t=19805

several notes about death penalty,
and an overall consensus that being forced to walk is all death penalty TMW Classic should ever need.
viewtopic.php?t=19805
viewtopic.php?t=19318
viewtopic.php?t=19266
viewtopic.php?t=18206 (partly overturned)
viewtopic.php?t=17742 (Enforced)
viewtopic.php?t=17381 (Actually the main thread on the subject, but I didn't read this one)
viewtopic.php?t=16800 (later became Hardcore server)
viewtopic.php?p=57673#p57673 (for sake of proving the consensus standing, 2009, no dev thought on this one)

There's a lot of stuff on wiki and I don't have enough free time to link everything for every topic I mentioned either. And if you are wondering if devs sometimes use 2009 public discussion as grounds for the changes they make, remember the Scythe vs Shortsword patch. TMW Classic is a slow moving game, where things happen when someone is willing to put them in motion, things can remain as "discussed" for literal decades as you've just seen before actually making it to implementation stage.

In any case, Ledmitz is the head of development. If he believes an exception must be made for Crypt (to spawn in that safe area in 0F) he will do it himself. *Throws Ledz to the wolves*

JK, Ledmitz would never think in something so "cheap". He'll first think if the issue is limited to the boss fights or if it applies to the whole crypt, then in other ways to access the crypts, then about respawning in Asphodel Moors, then he'll check whenever archers are capable to making the trip safely or if their stat allocation is the issue, then he'll test whenever whatever he considers "expected" stats for a Lv 60 archer matches the map design, then he'll check the mob placement for obvious pitfalls, then... Yep, being a lead dev is a tough job. But he'll eventually come up with a solution. Give him time.

[Ledmitz]

No one suffers from this more than me... er Tipsy Skeleton, my alt. I spend much time on the Terogan level and when I die, its a long way back. Its the penalty for dying, as stated already. I get annoyed as I'm supposed to feel when I die. I could grind in other places, as another class, gain more defense/evade, but not much more. What are the reasons players want a closer spawn point? Less defense and evade for more damage? I'm not a fan of it taking so long to get back at times, but it makes me want to keep some defenses or play in a group. Is there an alternative to spawn points for a death penalty? Shall it be loss of exp, items, GP? This is a game after all. I thought of bringing back the soul menhir in the moor for the crypt only. Then the penalty would be cut in half, but I was trying to prevent 1 vit and 1 luck characters from grinding nonstop in the graveyard. The moor is too close for there. How does that sound?... Bring back the soul menhir in the moor as a spawn point for the crypt?

[Ledmitz]

Also as for the Northern Woodlands..... Yes, I agree we should bring back that old spawn point at the adjacent map as it was a great place for spawn parties.

[kereszte]

No one suffers from this more than me... er Tipsy Skeleton, my alt. I spend much time on the Terogan level and when I die, its a long way back. Its the penalty for dying, as stated already. I get annoyed as I'm supposed to feel when I die. I could grind in other places, as another class, gain more defense/evade, but not much more. What are the reasons players want a closer spawn point? Less defense and evade for more damage? I'm not a fan of it taking so long to get back at times, but it makes me want to keep some defenses or play in a group. Is there an alternative to spawn points for a death penalty? Shall it be loss of exp, items, GP? This is a game after all. I thought of bringing back the soul menhir in the moor for the crypt only. Then the penalty would be cut in half, but I was trying to prevent 1 vit and 1 luck characters from grinding nonstop in the graveyard. The moor is too close for there. How does that sound?... Bring back the soul menhir in the moor as a spawn point for the crypt?

This sounds more reasonable. As an archer, just getting into the crypt is an adventure. Seeing as archers in swamp get insta-gibbed, it wouldn't be far off to say that crypt is the end game for archers - is that why it was changed?

[Livio]

Another change that got people pissed off. Why you still fail at learning from previous failures?
Why keep changing a game you rarely play at all without even asking what community thinks about your ideas?
How can I be motivated contributing to a game that's getting disliked like that?

[Hello=)]

Death penalty idea itself isnt bad, but particular implementation just outright awful and made players so honked off they even found me outside of game.

Why this change is bad?
1) Kills off MMO aspect. If player walks half of world they dont fight or interact. MMO aspect goes to hell.
2) Feels like major regression and downgrade on player heads.
3) Its just boring and lame like hell to "work out" DP by merely walking. What's the fun just waste time on walking?

So personally I'd say "git revert" and "back to drawing board" if DP is what you need. Such solution seems to be worse than problem itself.

And I guess ppl want to respawn fairly close to action point to ... have MMO style interactions maybe. Fairly logical wish for MMORPG, no?

[jesusalva]

As per Ledmitz Request: https://git.themanaworld.org/legacy/ser ... quests/683

A git revert will NOT be done. Logistics, if anything else, we changed about 100 files, and you're complaining for less than 10% of that. These edge cases are easier to nitpick together rather than to damn the whole change.

Note: The respawn point was set to Asphodel Moors. If you have issues reaching Crypt in first place, then either your stat allocation is wrong or the graveyard map design is wrong (or you just need the good ol' move-mobs-away-from-the-door strategy). It does not include Graveyard itself, nor the part of the crypt which isn't underground. None of these have anything to do with respawn to start with.