Arrow-making and economics rework

[ThinkSome]

Observations:

• It is not cost effective to make iron arrows from raw logs. Jack will pay a bit more for them, plus give exp. And good luck buying raw logs from players at these prices. (Note: on my test server I could only get 1089 matk and was producing 35 iron arrows per log, this is 140gp worth of arrows at NPC)

• Low basic arrow prices at shops combined with the above kill any possibility of player-player trade

• the non-basic arrows are horrifically overpriced at NPC shops and the materials are slow to farm

Suggestions for improvement:

• greatly increase (double, triple) amount of raw logs dropped by log head, or log head density;

• OR greatly increase (double, triple) amount of arrows produced from a single log

• Change the current make-arrows spell to produce ordinary wooden ones

• Add a spell that takes a bundle of ordinary arrows & iron (ore or ingot) and produces iron arrows

• Add a spell that takes a bundle of ordinary arrows & silver (ore or ingot) and produces silver arrows

• Add a spell that takes a bundle of ordinary arrows & terranite ore and produces terranite arrows

• Perhaps the three above could also happen at forge (the latter does already)

• Make raw log farming the easiest for warriors (IMO already the case as 015-1 is full of obstacles), Best arrow yield for astral soul mages (already the case). Thus warrior could sell logs to mages who would sell arrows to archers.

[Ledmitz]

I like it all, but do think the metal ones should be made at the forges. If there's a choice with a spell, the spell should probably make less. Ofc then we need to consider what insane magic bonuses may exist in the future and how that would affect arrow making unless we just cap the max amount in the spell.

[ThinkSome]

I like it all, but do think the metal ones should be made at the forges. If there's a choice with a spell, the spell should probably make less. Ofc then we need to consider what insane magic bonuses may exist in the future and how that would affect arrow making unless we just cap the max amount in the spell.

Can have a constant set in forge script and re-use it in spell with *9/10 or some such as max. If spell does exist and ingredients are lighter than results (it's the case in the arrows spell, one raw log is 10g and lighter than 35g of arrows), then that could be a viable path of getting more arrows into costly places (like keshlam's). But I'd prefer if raw logs are made heavier... like 100g (such as on ML) or 1kg each. The latter might be too heavy.

[Hello=)]

I like your thinking ThinkSome. Now powerful mage can make like 36 iron arrows per log and beginner/intermediate mages way less than that. It dubs as shy 72 GP - for killing logheads, casting spells in numbers to get anyhow worthy GPs, and then selling this. Not to mention reaching levels, obtaining artifacts and so on. Overall, scheme looks very bad on effotts/gain ratio so it unused.

How about idea adding these scary wooden abominations on some woodland maps, and making them "guaranteed drop", dropping bunch of roots/logs at once? Since they're hard to cut for other classes (actually, still doable - if you swarm them) - this could make +1 reason to play as mage if this gives reasonable income - and gets ppl involved into supply chains/crafting activities, interacting other players.

That's where forges are logical ... but do not boast interactions between players nor promote crafting as role/occupation (as in acquiring specialized stats/gear/etc). As idea maybe they can make e.g. tips for arrows from relevant ingots or (ore+coal), and spells can actually upgarde arrows? Or mages can supply just standard arrows and forges can improve them.. but as is this would stuck on efforts/gain issue. It calls for either more numerous output, or more expensive arrows.

Later could be an option since I got impression some ppl do not really like "chaingun" mechanics and there's option to fire less arrows, slower, but doing more damage per arrow. As for considering future magic bonuses: its IMO wise to sort problem out if/when it appears - if it happens at all, instead of screwing gameplay here and now. Its not really hard to reshape spells into just about any computation logic you can think, it could include conditions or yield clamp if this really necerssary (but it kills incencitive to improve skills/artifacts).

As such: has it ever came to you 1) being part of supply chain for players is a valid reason to come back and play, feeling needed by community and enjoying interactions, and 2) same for improving spells efficiency and getting artifacts. So far TMW plagued by numerous rares which are very hard to get - yet half of them are for purely decorative purposes, failing to make their point. Has it ever came to you e.g. shroom hats can be a bit more than stupid decoration and actually e.g. impact summons? (And at this point of space and time I could even implement this, if desired).

TL;DR: as best "convergence" I can think so far: maybe mages should make MUCH MORE of STANDARD arrows per log, then these can be further upgraded at forges using mentioned resources/GPs? Ideally this could be some crafting occupation. I can also think extras, like batch-conversion, spell taking e.g. 10 logs and making arrows to make it less annoying/avoided. There's also room for "enchanted arrows", that are "guided" - so miss targets less compared to normal versions. So as such, it can be multi-staged process: make standard arrows -> upgrade them -> enchant them -> whoa, now that's a good gear. But if you cant afford it or too busy just get standard arrows as cheap/fast fallback to get show going. Catch about mages vs standard arrows? At 1GP per standard arrow mages offer would make no sense if there's NPC with same prices. But seems its the only ugly point of proposed scheme and not really hard to fix.

[ThinkSome]

How about idea adding these scary wooden abominations on some woodland maps, and making them "guaranteed drop", dropping bunch of roots/logs at once? Since they're hard to cut for other classes (actually, still doable - if you swarm them) - this could make +1 reason to play as mage if this gives reasonable income - and gets ppl involved into supply chains/crafting activities, interacting other players.

I'd actually prefer if log heads or this branching abomination had higher mdef & melee resistance... to enable warrior->mage->archer supply chain, instead of just mage->archer

In fact I'd do this for all necessities, for example:

• warrior->mage->archer for arrows

• mage->warrior->archer for conc pots (can have pink flowers have 100% def so only mages can farm them easily), and then warriors needed to extract the leaves (strength). In Moubootaur, this strength requirement exists for extracting more croconut halves from croconuts. The more strength you have, the higher the chance of getting both halves intact.

• archer->warrior->mage for mega mana bugs, same principle.

• archer->mage->warrior for iron pots. Currently, it's very time-ineffficient to farm iron pots or small mushrooms directly, but we could make these mushrooms have both high mdef and be hard hitting or 100% chance of poisoning.. so that only archers can really farm them

Another idea is to make these abominations have special summoning skills that only activate when lvl>50 players farm them... to encourage farming with low level alts or having new players farm to sell stuff to high level ones.

I don't have an opinion yet on how to make support classes for forges work out or how to improve forges.

"chaingun" mechanics

Yep, something needs to be done about this. It would also enable more realistic weighs per arrow.

being part of supply chain for players is a valid reason to come back and play, feeling needed by community and enjoying interactions,

Yep, that's what a MMORPG should be about. I would even go as far as proposing to make the xp curve steeper between lvl 1 and 55... to make people hang out at the lower levels for longer. And, of course adding lower level boss fights.

So far TMW plagued by numerous rares which are very hard to get - yet half of them are for purely decorative purposes, failing to make their point.

Why should all equipment have a use... I think it's alright that there's some clothing that is decorative only.

Has it ever came to you e.g. shroom hats can be a bit more than stupid decoration and actually e.g. impact summons? (And at this point of space and time I could even implement this, if desired).

IIRC the pink shroom hat has quite some def and no matk penalty.

I can also think extras, like batch-conversion, spell taking e.g. 10 logs and making arrows to make it less annoying/avoided.

I was already thinking about this for ML's transmutation... basically to cast a spell while sitting and it does its thing as long as you are sitting and still have mana.

There's also room for "enchanted arrows", that are "guided".

I was thinking about this, but to make them lighter: floating iron arrow 0g for example. But OTOH this just opens the route for adding enchanted versions of everything else, at which point it would be better to just implement a "bag of holding" and Led is, I think, implicitly(?) against this.

[Hello=)]

1) I can't think good lore explaining wooden things m.def vs e.g. lightning or flare dart (IIRC, technically of fire "origin"). This would be just weird.

2) There's already TON of monsters with high mdef, to point its annoying and unrewarding to play as mage, ppl at most play mages as restat, not their "main" class - and use alts or restat to grind. This looks like chance to hit 2 birds with one stone, improving this aspect.

3) It would be weird if hitting woods by sword/arrows/fists is efficient. Btw logheads are OK for noobs. They DO hunt these regardless of class. At low level these are rewarding compared to many things: dont hit hard, give XP, roots are good to sell, and phy def isnt THAT bad. Ent abominations phy def is terrible. Why not? Other monsters enjoy high M.def, so why it can't happen to other classes as well? This said: it could be fun to get "task-specific" weapons, e.g. lumberjack axe, fire sword/arrows, etc - more efficeint vs "dendroids" or even setting target on fire (much like poison?)

4) As for STR: could be logical requrement for forges. So making arrow tips from ingots (or just "improve arrow" to simplify chain) should probably need decent strength. Maybe e.g. "yield per ingot" could depend on STR much like transmutation depends on M.Atk?

5) I dont see prob with monsters for different levels, its normal practice for MMORPGs. Sorry, if you come to other MMORPG, find Lv 100 boss and hit it as LV 20 noob, guess what happens next.

6) Mages can pro'lly further improve mentioned arrows making them "guided" (and expensive) by some spell. But this really needs "chaingun" to go away and shouldnt one-shot leveled ppl in PvP. Nothing wrongs if warriors help to make "extracts" or something for this process. It would also be nice if valuable ingredients are farmed/mined/hunted in dangerous corners. TMW currently lacks in this aspect, yet it can turn utterly boring stuff like mining/grinding/etc into exciting adventure. Just think you'll try "steal" resource (faster version of) Moubotaur, avoiding detection, or if this fails, few friends around can be useful! Or you die and have to travel to remote corner again, avoiding or fighting tough monsters.

7) Archers... well, in arrows supply chain they're consumer. Doesnt means they can't hunt some ingredients though.

IMO for MMORPGs its better when stylish gear also showcased in battlefield - failure to do so missing a lot of opportinities to make gameplay more interesting and basically wastes item. E.g. I can see much better use for shroom hats. How about impacting relevant shroom type spawns, for example?

9) As for low levels... there's too much things missing on low level side of things and high levelers would see no fun in low level action, so MMO part would get stuck. So IMO at least "not now" - wouldnt do TMW any good at this point, locking ppl out "most" MMO action for a while. This said: I think I invented cool way to get around this particular problem. Unfortunately, its radically different on game mechanic, expected interactions and needs really different lore set to merely get excuse on doing things that way - so it doesnt looks like one big WTF. This wouldnt fit TMW unfortunately.

[ThinkSome]

1) good lore explaining wooden things m.def...

log heads are moving wood, made to move through magic?

2) There's already TON of monsters with high mdef, to point its annoying and unrewarding to play as mage, ...

I agree that mages could be buffed or warriors nerfed, but this warrior->mage->archer is basically the only route that involves all classes and mages producing arrows. It can of course be flipped, with mages farming log heads and warriors forging arrows.

3) It would be weird if hitting woods by sword/arrows/fists is efficient. ...

Yeah.. arrows/fists are no-go. Swords... maybe. But, other than arrows, I don't know how to limit swords and fists on TMWA. Perhaps the elemental system could be used to boost/nerf damage, if TMWA has it.

4) As for STR: could be logical requrement for forges. So making arrow tips from ingots (or just "improve arrow" to simplify chain) should probably need decent strength. Maybe e.g. "yield per ingot" could depend on STR much like transmutation depends on M.Atk?

Yes.

5) I dont see prob with monsters for different levels, its normal practice for MMORPGs. Sorry, if you come to other MMORPG, find Lv 100 boss and hit it as LV 20 noob, guess what happens next.

There should be more cases of where being higher level is not the best choice. These low level monsters could "underestimate the opponent" if they're too low level, failing to spawn supports. Think of how raging quest part 1 is harder the higher level you are, or how you gain less boss points in crypt fights for being overleveled.

6) Mages can pro'lly further improve mentioned arrows making them "guided" (and expensive) by some spell. But this really needs "chaingun" to go away and shouldnt one-shot leveled ppl in PvP. Nothing wrongs if warriors help to make "extracts" or something for this process. It would also be nice if valuable ingredients are farmed/mined/hunted in dangerous corners. TMW currently lacks in this aspect, yet it can turn utterly boring stuff like mining/grinding/etc into exciting adventure. Just think you'll try "steal" resource (faster version of) Moubotaur, avoiding detection, or if this fails, few friends around can be useful! Or you die and have to travel to remote corner again, avoiding or fighting tough monsters.

Fields of vision is something to consider, both for players and mobs. Easy to implement, too, I think.

7) Archers... well, in arrows supply chain they're consumer. Doesnt means they can't hunt some ingredients though.

The idea is that they'd hunt ingredients for warriors & mages, not for themselves.

IMO for MMORPGs its better when stylish gear also showcased in battlefield - failure to do so missing a lot of opportinities to make gameplay more interesting and basically wastes item. E.g. I can see much better use for shroom hats. How about impacting relevant shroom type spawns, for example?

Ok, but this is getting offtopic

9) As for low levels... there's too much things missing on low level side of things and high levelers would see no fun in low level action, so MMO part would get stuck. So IMO at least "not now" - wouldnt do TMW any good at this point, locking ppl out "most" MMO action for a while. This said: I think I invented cool way to get around this particular problem. Unfortunately, its radically different on game mechanic, expected interactions and needs really different lore set to merely get excuse on doing things that way - so it doesnt looks like one big WTF. This wouldnt fit TMW unfortunately.

Low level boss fights could partially solve the lack of MMO action.

[Hello=)]

1) I still think most ppl expect lightnings/fire deal damage to trees, while swords/arrows are not very efficient. MDef not really fits this.
2) RN anyone can hunt logheads reasonably. Livio (archer!) and few others routinely sell me roots. Logs -> arrows could've been part of this, but its unrewarding: 1..2 GP/arrow = no room for "added value". OTOH I eventually make e.g. bone arrows, Grimace of Dementia pots, heal pots, etc.
3) If you feel daring you can try to look on #confringo. Interesting "hybrid" attack, most aspects scripted, so can be overriden. I only partially decoded these runes so far. Or even #upmarmu, but it seems it even more complicated. I can imagine this way its possible to implement a lot of things.
4) Yes, dangerous location with rewarding loot/dig/etc aren't very hard. But there's risk ppl would pull monsters away. I think it could be sorted out, but wold need some scripting (areatimers/labeled monsters/setting their destinations/etc?).
5) I actually buy some ingredients from archers/warriors. At least roots, bug legs/slimes, iron ore, etc. So speaking of chains, they already exist.

I think we more or less converging to smth?
If arrows made more expensive, lower rate of fire, but more damage per arrow, mages can be reverted to making standard arrows (== added value), then warriors use forge to improve to iron/silver/etc (== added value) and possibly mages can further enchant this to "guided" types (if desired). Archers could be allowed to hunt some ingredients for this, why not? Logheads are better off as is: low levels need them for Foret Bow quest, so they should be possible to kill for all classes.