Monster Points observation...

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ElvenProgrammer
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Post by ElvenProgrammer » 30 Jan 2007, 18:56

Once you submit a contribution to our project you agree to submitting it under the terms of the GPL license, which means that our project, as well as other GPLed projects should be allowed to use it. If using this contribution is really offending the author, we could think about removing it, in fact the monster point system is nothing vital for our game. But this doesn't mean that other projects can't use it. For example eAthena should be able to include this one in between their scripts.

What really bothers me is that Bear is just attempting to damage our project, only because of his disagreement with the development team, which I don't think is a mature behavior. He started acting like that when we removed his GM privileges because he was abusing them.
I doubt of him being in disagreement with the development line we're following because he knew this was meant to be a Ragnarok/Secret of Mana like game where I mean graphics "inspired" by Ragnarok and game-system "inspired" by Secret of Mana. (Don't underestimate this fact even if the name of the game contains only the word mana). So switching to hi-res graphics when it was possible was an improvement in my opinion and not betraying the promises of this project.

Whenever you still want to remove those scripts or know valid reasons for them to be removed I would surely do it, it's just a matter of commenting out some lines. This is just my opinion. I'm open to suggestions.

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Re >:O

Post by Bear » 31 Jan 2007, 01:03

First off, i agree that I uploaded/gave you the script for TMW under that liscencing. BUT Im just ASKING that you willingly take it off yourself.

And elven, please refrain from using the *GM* incident against me. Im not that childish. I have followed this project since version..... 0.0.3?!

Its just not what it used to be, it might be what everyone wants, but its not going tword its original goal. If you look around, i bet you 45+% of the people working on this project probably hasnt even played Secret Of Mana
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Re: Re >:O

Post by Modanung » 31 Jan 2007, 01:27

Bear wrote:If you look around, i bet you 45+% of the people working on this project probably hasnt even played Secret Of Mana
I did, and you sure aren't quite helping cutting down that number. :)
If you're looking for 3D FOSS games be sure to check out LucKey Productions on itch.io
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Post by kaneimada » 31 Jan 2007, 06:24

Okay, addressing a few things. I know for a *fact* that Bear *is not* trying to destroy the project because he was de-GMed. I'm not going to go into that in detail though, because that's not the subject I'm trying to discuss at hand.

Now, about that Monster Point system. According to Bears tone, it's obvious that he's offended by the usage of his system in TMW, right? In my honest opinion, since he created the system, that alone should be enough to remove it. True, TMW took it legitimately, but with all due respect, I have heard that the development team consist of a large amount of people. Bjorn said "I see no reason to remove the system as long as there is nothing better." So what does that mean? Does removing the Monster Point System destroy TMW? What he said made it sound as if... "The Mana World doesn't have anything very good right now, so we're going to keep that system."

You want suggestions? Here's one. Go buy, or look up game footage of "Children of Mana." When TMW was new, I had hoped that it would be pretty much just like CoM, but online. Also, that whole RagnarokOnline/Secret of Mana thing you said, yeah, I would have assumed that's what you guys had in mind. Remember when I said "TMW feels like just some online 2D game."

The reason why I said that is because the game feels over all generic. (No offense...)

My explication:

The battle system is very plain. It's not exacly the most flashy looking system either, (but the latter might be understandable considering spriteing can be long repetitive work.) but it appears no one even tried to implement anything that would make the battle system appear more interesting. Why not make a 2 button attack? Characters can equip a primary weapon, and a secondary weapon. Remember in Secret of Mana how your character's attacks would get weaker as you spam them? Why not do that? How about Critical attacks knock enemies back, vice versa?

There, I offered a few ideas/suggestions. Now, if you don't like my ideas, that's fine, but I sure hope that you have people in the development team attempt to think up some ideas too, and that not every thing comes from the general public.
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Post by Rotonen » 31 Jan 2007, 08:26

kaneimada, you have never played the game "The Mana World". Neither has anyone else.

Let's stop being silly about pre-alpha pseudo content and concentrate on actual content development, shall we?
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Post by kaneimada » 31 Jan 2007, 09:18

"kaneimada, you have never played the game "The Mana World". Neither has anyone else.

Okay, I have exactly no idea what the heck you mean by that. I have never played "The Mana World." Someone want to clarify what that's suppose to mean to me?? I distinctly remembering downloading your game on to my desktop, and I distinctly remember people logged on to The Mana World walking around, leveling, and... I don't know, playing the game....




Let's stop being silly about pre-alpha pseudo content and concentrate on actual content development, shall we?"

I hope you actually read my last post before this one. I *once again* distinctly remember posting a few of my suggestion and ideas on to this topic to offer. Is that content development? Or was that considered trash? :/ I apologize for my tone, but I'm becoming slowly irritated, it seems to appear that no one, asside from Elven, seems to be reading and understanding my posts.
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Post by Avaniel » 31 Jan 2007, 10:54

kaneimada wrote:"kaneimada, you have never played the game "The Mana World". Neither has anyone else.

Okay, I have exactly no idea what the heck you mean by that. I have never played "The Mana World."
You are curently playing eAthena, with some TMW scripting. The TMW server is still in development and with that the TMW game.
kaneimada wrote:it seems to appear that no one, asside from Elven, seems to be reading and understanding my posts.
Since he is the project leader that isn't necessarily a bad thing...
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then you swing your +150 axe. Then you win.
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Post by Bjørn » 31 Jan 2007, 16:30

kaneimada wrote:"kaneimada, you have never played the game "The Mana World". Neither has anyone else.

Okay, I have exactly no idea what the heck you mean by that. I have never played "The Mana World." Someone want to clarify what that's suppose to mean to me?? I distinctly remembering downloading your game on to my desktop, and I distinctly remember people logged on to The Mana World walking around, leveling, and... I don't know, playing the game....
The point he's trying to make is that you and Bear seem take the current state of TMW as an example of "where this project is heading", or somehow "where it ended up". But no, the project hasn't ended here and isn't headed here. As most of the development team agrees, what The Mana World is currently is mostly just a sandbox, a pre-alpha, it's a start.

Instead of complaining about the combat being non-interesting, it would be much more helpful if you would instead help out solving the problems related to conceptualizing and implementing a more interesting combat experience. Your quick set of ideas is interesting, even though nothing we haven't seen or thought about before, but there are non-trivial technical problems related to implementing them in a well performing and non-exploitable way. Experiments with handling movement and combat are slowly progressing in the development trunks of the tmw and tmwserv modules.
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Post by kaneimada » 01 Feb 2007, 00:56

The point he's trying to make is that you and Bear seem take the current state of TMW as an example of "where this project is heading", or somehow "where it ended up". But no, the project hasn't ended here and isn't headed here. As most of the development team agrees, what The Mana World is currently is mostly just a sandbox, a pre-alpha, it's a start.
Okay, if that's what is *now,* then fine. If that really is the current situation of The Mana World, then I'm really no longer concerned with the game with the exception of the Monster Point System. I had really high hopes before, because that whole thing about it being a "Secret of Mana Online" kind of concept was exactly what I was told, and thus, was exactly what I was hoping for. I played SoM, and CoM, and I had always thought that it would make a fun 2D MMORPG. I guess that's no longer happening here, or will it anywhere else any time soon now.
Instead of complaining about the combat being non-interesting, it would be much more helpful if you would instead help out solving the problems related to conceptualizing and implementing a more interesting combat experience. Your quick set of ideas is interesting, even though nothing we haven't seen or thought about before, but there are non-trivial technical problems related to implementing them in a well performing and non-exploitable way. Experiments with handling movement and combat are slowly progressing in the development trunks of the tmw and tmwserv modules.
And about this second post... All I know is that this topic was located under "Suggestions" and so, I suggested an idea. Now, this is how I see what happend after I suggested my idea. Instead, you jump on me and you start talking about how I'm "complaining" about how the battle system is non intresting. Look, I'm suggesting my opinion of what I think is a better one. If a person tries your game and decides to suggest their idea of how to make it better, is that what you call a complaint? *If it is,* then so be it, call my suggestion a complaint.

Second of all, I don't know how to impliment your ideas or other systems, as a person who visit the fourms and (used to) log on TMW, all I do is offer my ideas, and you shouldn't get upset if I don't know how to program. A simple "Yeah, we tried your ideas, and a few techincal problems are in the way and were working on it" would have been better rather than "Instead of suggestion your ideas to improve the combat system, do something useful and tell us how to fix it so that we can implement more systems." That's the message I pretty much got form you.

Also, in reply to a post earlier... "The Mana World" is what I call "eAthena with TMW scripts." Don't try to make it sound like I have no idea what I'm talking about by correcting me on things you know *exactly* what I'm talking about. I don't like it. :/ With that logic, you might as well rename the site to "eAthena with The mana world scripts." I'm calling the program I downloaded on to my desktop "the mana world" and I'm sure you know that.
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Post by Bjørn » 02 Feb 2007, 13:51

There's no point in becoming so irritated from our responses. Again you seem to have missed the point we're trying to make about the current state of The Mana World. The Mana World is a game in development. We're far from reaching our goal. Now if that somehow destroys all your high hopes, then you've lost me, because I would have expected your hopes to go up instead.

If you can't help out with implementing combat, that's fine, very few people can. Just don't make it sound like we're unable to think of anything more interesting than what is there currently. This annoyed me and caused me to label it as a complaint instead of a suggestion.
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Post by kaneimada » 02 Feb 2007, 20:25

Bjørn wrote:The Mana World is a game in development. We're far from reaching our goal. Now if that somehow destroys all your high hopes, then you've lost me, because I would have expected your hopes to go up instead.
You might have made a point, but that's only one way of looking at it. Here, I'll just explain. The game is in development, and true you're far from reaching your goal and thus it *does* make make the game go in any direction so it's a possibility that the game could change in many ways still. My point is, despite that, so far the game has only moved towards a direction that is *not* what I had hoped to see, and that impression alone has gone on far enough to the point where I just plainly don't see the game I had hoped for, ever happening, or ever happening anytime any time soon. (No when I say any time soon, don't try to twist my words around by saying it's a work in progress so "of course not any time soon." You know exactly what I'm saying. >.>;


Bjørn wrote:If you can't help out with implementing combat, that's fine, very few people can. Just don't make it sound like we're unable to think of anything more interesting than what is there currently. This annoyed me and caused me to label it as a complaint instead of a suggestion.
I'm sorry if you thought that, but here's what I'm seeing. So far, I've only seen suggestions by people on the forums, and I haven't seen any from an admin. So ofcourse that's the impression that I would have gotten. I suppose thats why my words sounded the way they did.

--Now all that stuff was fine and dandy, but I *really* don't want to go off topic from what it originally was. I'm still hoping TMW will remove the monster point system, and implement their own unique system. I already gave my reasons. I understand that the suggestion was legitimately submitted under certain rules, but that's why I'm asking. If it's removed, then I'll be great full, and I'll just leave TMW be. If it won't be removed, then oh well, I see no point in posting in the forums any further because it's really the only thing that bothers me right now. Sorry for the trouble, but with all that being said, my time here is almost up. :/
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Post by Platyna » 02 Feb 2007, 21:03

I am a person responsible for server content development in this project. My decision is that this script is currently useful, and will be a subject of further modification, following the terms of use, defined by GPL. Thank you for your contribution Bear, if you are willing to further contribute to the server content development, I am open for suggestions and ideas.

I see it inappropriate for the former development team member and project admins arguing on public forum about the topic which seems to be unfortunate, therefore I am closing this topic.

Regards.
Zuzanna K. Filutowska
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