Enforcing No Bots

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Crush
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Re: Enforcing No Bots

Post by Crush » 29 Apr 2008, 19:33

Would it be easy to code that if a player kills 200 bats during a 24 hour period then she cannot gain xp by killing any more bats until the 24 hours have passed?
That's in fact a quite interesting idea. Not just for slowing down botters but also to reduce the grind factor by forcing people to change the level area frequently. This would also reduce the gap between casual players and powergamers (casual players can always level with the most efficient monsters while powergamers have to train with suboptimal enemies after a while).

Although I wouldn't go for a "200 enemies full exp and then 0 exp" solution but for a gradual reduction of exp per kill.
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Re: Enforcing No Bots

Post by Dr Wahl » 29 Apr 2008, 20:31

In my mind anyway, it also just makes more sense to gain less experience grinding on the same mob for a long time. This might be a little bit of a morbid example, but here it goes...

Lets say I have a ton of cats. I want to kill my cats (with my bare hands), but I do not have any experience in doing so. For my first attempt, I try to kill a cat by ripping it into two at the stomach. This is very difficult because of all the ligaments, muscles, bones, skin, etc., but it eventually does work. I have gained a lot of experience from that one kill. Now to start on the second cat. I take what I learned from the first kill, and I decide to snap its head off instead of at the stomach. This is much more productive and I kill the cat quicker. I have once again, gained experience in killing cats, but not as much as my first kill. On to the third cat. I now know that the neck is where I need to sever the cat, however, to improve on the method, I use a twisting motion. You see where this is going.

The point is, with the first few kills of the new foe, you learn a lot more than towards the end. Eventually it just becomes habit and you learn nothing from it.
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Re: Enforcing No Bots

Post by mon » 29 May 2008, 04:29

The problem with Dr Wahl's idea is that when a player has through hard work be able to kill almost all the monster types, he would come to a point where he only gains 1 exp per kill thus making it extremely hard to level up. I suggest something like wraiths patrolling the training area hovering over characters and moving on to the next. They either have high stats or posses magic. I assume bots would target the nearest monster.

Then the consequence would be to transport the player to a town, prison or someplace you go after the character dies. The wraiths would only do that if they were attacked in succession to prevent accidental targeting by the player but would stay near that player. Also, other monsters should avoid these wraiths so that it is the only one nearest to the player for a period of time. Non-bots would simply move away from this but if accidentally attacked, must leave the area.
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Re: Enforcing No Bots

Post by Crush » 29 May 2008, 04:54

It is very easy to modify a bot to ignore any kind of "trap monster". Such a bot detection would only work for about a week after it has been introduced.
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Re: Enforcing No Bots

Post by Shaggy » 31 May 2008, 13:12

Dr Wahl wrote:Lets say I have a ton of cats. I want to kill my cats (with my bare hands), but I do not have any experience in doing so. For my first attempt, I try to kill a cat by ripping it into two at the stomach. This is very difficult because of all the ligaments, muscles, bones, skin, etc., but it eventually does work. I have gained a lot of experience from that one kill. Now to start on the second cat. I take what I learned from the first kill, and I decide to snap its head off instead of at the stomach. This is much more productive and I kill the cat quicker. I have once again, gained experience in killing cats, but not as much as my first kill. On to the third cat. I now know that the neck is where I need to sever the cat, however, to improve on the method, I use a twisting motion. You see where this is going.
Do you have something against cats?
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Re: Enforcing No Bots

Post by Dr Wahl » 02 Jun 2008, 16:56

Nah, just the first thing that popped in to my head.

@mon:

I do not see an issue with getting no experience for mobs that are a signifanctly lower level than the character. This allows lower level mobs to be less enticing for higher level players to come through and one shot every mob in sight, making the area congested and difficult for the players who are the same level as the mobs. Also, it encourages progression in the game and moving on to new things. If the devs wanted players to kill just maggots all day and never progress, there would be no other areas/mobs/items/etc.
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Re: Enforcing No Bots

Post by Kingslayer » 04 Jun 2008, 08:07

i dont see the point, it will solf itself that highlvl players dont go for the smallmobs cause it just takes to long, they will always try to find monsters that have a good balance between xp and hp for their lvl. But the idea with the 200 Bats is stupid, when somebody powerlvls he has the right to gain way more xp than somebody who doesnt he works more for it too... And no matter what you do Bots will always be there. Just look at Ragnarok, the bots there can do EVERYTHING. It can walk arround pic up stuff, sell stuff, heal warp just everything. But most players use these bots to get rare items. I wouldnt try to much to stop the Bots, just add GM's to the Game they go arround an ban botplayer by just asking them simple random questions....
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Re: Enforcing No Bots

Post by Booty » 04 Jun 2008, 10:41

So are you suggesting that we give potential bots the Turing test? jk

Maybe a In-game flagging system.

Trusted players are given the ability to flag another player for certain behaviors, like bot-ing

And say the flags last a certain length of time, say nine hours, before expiring

Individually the flags do nothing but say a player gets flagged five times, and all the flags are still active, the player gets banned.

Keep in mind that each trusted player can only have one active flag on another player.

The bans should double in time each time, stating short then long.
1st ban 1hour, second two hours, third 4 hours, fourth eight hours. or some other exponential progress.

The idea is to punish the player lightly at first for mistakes, and heavily if it continues. Also lighter first punishments help prevent honest player that were wrongly banned from leaving permanently.

Ideally flag could be made through the chat window
Trustworthy:/flag botgamer this is the reason

and ideally a publicly viewable log could be made, with a 24 hour delay to prevent bots from reading it.

Also ideally the trusted players would not be in the same clique or formal group, but this would be harder to do.

The idea is to let the players do their own enforcement, thus saving the developers time, while not giving too much power individuals but rather distribute it.

To further prevent abuse and save the developers time, another group of trusted players should be selected. These players would act as appeals judges with the ability to revoke set flags/bans and reset ban counters (meaning the wrongly banned wouldn't be banned for a second ban length for their first real ban.)

These appeals judges would not have the ability to flag/ban players, only revoke.
Ideally they would visit the forums on a regular basis and promptly address any concerns over a player ban.

The appeals judges would oversee the flagging players and given, lets say, a three judge recommendation, they can either recommend removing flagging privileges from a player or do so themselves (probably through another flagging system with a longer flag expiration). Any judge player action must be reported on the forums following an established form, so that it is a matter of public record. I don't think it is necessary for flagging players to report on the forum, the server log should suffice, if such a log is unavailable then they probably should report in the forum but in a locked section that is not viewable by the public (to prevent bots from reading).

The idea is that someone watches the watchmen. Or the players watch themselves watching themselves.

This system if set in place should allow for minimal developer involvement in enforcing developer established rules by making the player police themselves. Only in extreme cases where there is multiple corrupt judges would it be necessary to for the developers to intervene.

In cases of corruption of flagging players and judging players, such as blackmail or taking bribes, those offending players should have their accounts removed, meaning the characters, gold, inventory, all gone. Players should only be accepted as flaggers and judges on the condition that it is possible that they might be wrongly accused and found guilty of corruption and they run the risk of the consequences. With great power comes great responsibility.

Lesser penalties may apply for other mistakes, such as enforcing non-existent rules. In, which case a revocation of their privileges might be more appropriate.

The real key to this working is good oversight by the judges. Careful selection of those would be necessary.

Sound feasible/reasonable?

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Re: Enforcing No Bots

Post by mon » 17 Jun 2008, 10:25

Booty:
That's a nice idea. I'm just thinking that flagged players can have the option to turn it off by say, visiting an NPC outside the area in question where the bot is.

And to minimize the tendency to bot is to allocate part of the map or a new building as special training rooms where players will train offline for a daily or hourly fee depending on his level. It will also have a set maximum limit. When he logs in, the training will end and any excess time will still be charged in full.
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Re: Enforcing No Bots

Post by Booty » 19 Jun 2008, 14:07

mon wrote:Booty:
That's a nice idea. I'm just thinking that flagged players can have the option to turn it off by say, visiting an NPC outside the area in question where the bot is.

And to minimize the tendency to bot is to allocate part of the map or a new building as special training rooms where players will train offline for a daily or hourly fee depending on his level. It will also have a set maximum limit. When he logs in, the training will end and any excess time will still be charged in full.
If visiting an NPC was an option then they can automate that, too. With the automation software available on windows and mac I am surprised we aren't seeing very complex bot movements (maybe we are but don't recognize them).

Offline training sounds good but I can't help but feel it would make people want to play less which I think is being avoided. Another suggestion brought forth I liked was something like stamina building when offline. The player would gain stamina when not playing and when they return they fight better and harder until the stamina is depleted.
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Re: Enforcing No Bots

Post by mon » 19 Jun 2008, 19:06

Booty wrote:
mon wrote: If visiting an NPC was an option then they can automate that, too. With the automation software available on windows and mac I am surprised we aren't seeing very complex bot movements (maybe we are but don't recognize them).

Offline training sounds good but I can't help but feel it would make people want to play less which I think is being avoided. Another suggestion brought forth I liked was something like stamina building when offline. The player would gain stamina when not playing and when they return they fight better and harder until the stamina is depleted.
An example of what I meant by offline training is that players go to a building (gym) and pay for training. He'll get say 5% of exp per hour and he have to pay the equivalent of 10gp x current level but can only be up to 4 hours worth of training. After that, the character returns to the lobby waiting for further orders. They will return to the game and get more money.

The reason that most people place bots is because of the repetitive tasks they have to do. It has become a staple in RPGs. Unless you add a LOT of item collecting quests. I haven't seen a bot that picks up items yet or something that sits for a couple of minutes. Maybe don't make the bug collection quest a one time deal. Just make it so that every time the player finishes that quest, the reward decreases until it is better to just sell it at the market.

Another thing that came to my attention is that some players leave the game for a period of time while the character just sits. They're in some way a bot because no human player is controlling the character, although this could mean that the current order for the bot is to sit while waiting for further instructions. The only benefit I see in here is that he can check the chat history and the other players don't need to repeat themselves in their conversations. What if this happens in the cave where they're confident enough not to get killed? Whatever code that will be applied also affects them. I'll research more on bots used for malwares, maybe I'll get some ideas there and share it. I hope we don't resort to captchas. :D
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Re: Enforcing No Bots

Post by Crush » 19 Jun 2008, 19:16

I don't like the idea that you put your character in a gym, pay a load of money, go on vacation for two weeks and when you are back you skipped 20 character levels.

A stamina system, on the other hand, is a good way to reduce the progress speed difference between powergamers and casual gamers without giving people progress for nothing. You also don't skip large portions of content (and just fast-forward through them instead).
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Re: Enforcing No Bots

Post by mon » 20 Jun 2008, 04:53

Crush wrote:I don't like the idea that you put your character in a gym, pay a load of money, go on vacation for two weeks and when you are back you skipped 20 character levels.

A stamina system, on the other hand, is a good way to reduce the progress speed difference between powergamers and casual gamers without giving people progress for nothing. You also don't skip large portions of content (and just fast-forward through them instead).
Yeah. That is why there is a set upper limit. The character will only gain experience for maybe an equivalent of 4 hours of play. After that, the character will just become dormant. Which means he or she has to log on the very next day if he or she wants to level up. Going offline for weeks will do no more that someone using that overnight. Although the stamina system is a good idea. Some people probably play 12 hours straight during the weekends. It could be the only time they can play, so hope the character's stamina would last that long. :D

If someone could use a bot to selectively kill off monsters, go outside and talk to NPCs. I'm sure they can automate other stuffs like opening and closing programs at a set time and execute commands. This makes the idea of using human players to marshal these areas more feasible or maybe combine all the good ideas here. As comparing this to Ragnarok bots, I think some are doing that for the money which is not the case here. I got this from a friend who knows someone who was able to make a lot of real world money out of this. The only thing I see out of players using a bot to level up is to do more quests and probably be finishing the game a lot sooner that devs can add more quests. If only we could make player interaction more enticing rather than the "I'm all alone and I must kill all these bats and level up but it's too repetitive" mentality.
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Re: Enforcing No Bots

Post by Booty » 21 Jun 2008, 07:55

mon wrote:
Booty wrote:
mon wrote: If visiting an NPC was an option then they can automate that, too. With the automation software available on windows and mac I am surprised we aren't seeing very complex bot movements (maybe we are but don't recognize them).

Offline training sounds good but I can't help but feel it would make people want to play less which I think is being avoided. Another suggestion brought forth I liked was something like stamina building when offline. The player would gain stamina when not playing and when they return they fight better and harder until the stamina is depleted.
An example of what I meant by offline training is that players go to a building (gym) and pay for training. He'll get say 5% of exp per hour and he have to pay the equivalent of 10gp x current level but can only be up to 4 hours worth of training. After that, the character returns to the lobby waiting for further orders. They will return to the game and get more money.

The reason that most people place bots is because of the repetitive tasks they have to do. It has become a staple in RPGs. Unless you add a LOT of item collecting quests. I haven't seen a bot that picks up items yet or something that sits for a couple of minutes. Maybe don't make the bug collection quest a one time deal. Just make it so that every time the player finishes that quest, the reward decreases until it is better to just sell it at the market.

Another thing that came to my attention is that some players leave the game for a period of time while the character just sits. They're in some way a bot because no human player is controlling the character, although this could mean that the current order for the bot is to sit while waiting for further instructions. The only benefit I see in here is that he can check the chat history and the other players don't need to repeat themselves in their conversations. What if this happens in the cave where they're confident enough not to get killed? Whatever code that will be applied also affects them. I'll research more on bots used for malwares, maybe I'll get some ideas there and share it. I hope we don't resort to captchas. :D

Trust me sitting and picking up are easy to script, I know of at least one bot that has scripted picking up.

Captchas are terrible. Conversation can be made randomly.
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Re: Enforcing No Bots

Post by Lecter » 03 Jul 2008, 17:17

Well, many can say that a "Kiora" is a bot within the mine's first level.

I say that with a set of conditions that with trigger random forum-like anti bot texts in image to write, will be fine.
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