Magic System --- Here is is!

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Clef
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Some Corrections

Post by Clef » 18 Feb 2005, 21:10

Thank you, Kyokay i didi that graph last night.
I do agree with 9 elements, is a good number. ill upload the image of the "Tree of Life" from Qabala

Oh yes, i need correct some words on latin names:

word = latin/greek

Wind = Ventus/Anemos
Stone = Petra/Lithos
Air = Aero/Pneumos
Time = Tempus/Chronos
Space = Chaos(Tractus)/Topos
Moon = Luna/Selene
Sun = Sol/Helios
Star = Stella/Astra
Life = Vita/Bios(zoe)
(i can look for more if anyones needs)

kabbalistic "Tree of Life"
if someone saw "evangelion" anime should recognise it
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Post by Kyokai » 18 Feb 2005, 22:11

I like the idea of organizing our elements into a diagram like that. However, I don't think we can copy them directly from an existing model. Let's try to get our own symbols and diagram, rather than copy ones that might have some sort of religious signifigance.
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Post by Bjørn » 19 Feb 2005, 00:07

I just want to say I'll mostly be fine with whatever you come up with in this area, as long as there is a good amount of spells and stuff. I'm expecting to be more involved with this later when we actually need some animation for the spell effects, because I expect big parts of that will require coding. Doing things like particle and lightning effects should be possible then.
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Post by Talaroc » 19 Feb 2005, 00:15

Likewise, I like the idea of a chart, but using preexisting ones (particularly stuff like Qabbala that holds deep religious significance) is definately out.

So, in the spirit of that idea, as well as to get my own ideas on the subject across a little more clearly, I drew one up (mm, Photoshop...feel the love. :wink: ). Looking back over the system I wrote out, I saw that I had made it a little unbalanced; wind was too powerful and unless earth spells were significantly more powerful than normal, they would be outpowered by other schools working in tandem. So, I re-worked the system a bit. I'm continuing to use the original eight elements I was before, but I've added in "life," because I agree that it can bring some interesting possibilities. However, I purposefully left life out of the "web," as I think that works better from a philosophical point of view. Life spells, in this setup, would of course have to be made slightly more powerful at the higher levels to make up the difference. Each other element is given one oppositional element and two complimentary elements. This is to encourage players to specialize in two (or occasionally three) elements, while keeping a great deal of diversity (as there's more complimentary options). Here it is:
Image
I can, of course, change it around if need be. I also, as a side note, have the gems (which are, yes, of my own creation) saved in separate files (and can make more in any color), of there's a use for gem sprites.
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Post by Kyokai » 19 Feb 2005, 03:42

Talaroc wrote: Each other element is given one oppositional element and two complimentary elements.
That's good. I like your design. Life spells probably won't get inordinately powerful to make up the difference though. The idea is that they are weaker, but still affect everyone the same, which is their main merit.

I think you should put life at the center of the web, rather than outside though, but I see how that could interact badly with the opposition lines. Oh well, you're the artist, so you decide.
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Post by Talaroc » 19 Feb 2005, 07:18

Yeah, keeping the life gem at the center made it look like life opposed everything, and broke up the subtle 3D effect of the chart. I wanted to put it within the web, but after thinking about it, I thought, "Why should it be inside the web? Life, magickally speaking, is the result of the whole web coming together. To put life within it would be saying that the sum of the parts is one of the parts, which doesn't make sense." That's my justfication, anyway.

And I see what you're saying about not making the life spells stronger; agreed.
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Post by ElvenProgrammer » 19 Feb 2005, 09:07

Great work Talaroc, keep the gems, we will use them soon or later.. Sincerely I don't like the space magic very much, but I wasn't able to think a valid alternative. A suggestion could be "Spirit" maybe, with magic that drains energy from living beings or something like that (yes it's not a good idea I know). Maybe "Life" Should be in opposition with "Death" ? Just a thought
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The meaning of Mana

Post by Clef » 19 Feb 2005, 14:50

The word "mana" is a real word, that comes from a native indian from Melanesia. The meaning of mana is the "Mystic Force from the Spirits of the Nature". Say that Mana means "Magic" is simplistic, and before the game "Secret of Mana" that word dont was that popular as is today.
Using "Mana Magic" is a kind of magic that manipulates that flow of energy, not only life per se.

About Qaballa, it IS a Metaphorical Symbol!!! it do NOT have religious meaning, it only shows the relationship among the forces in its diagram, the diagram of emanations...its like a Chemical Table, but it deals on MYSTIC forces.

So please before someones start saying something about things, please just Ask.
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Magical Theory

Post by Clef » 19 Feb 2005, 15:41

Many good RPGS have a strongly defined elemental theory, it is good for people who like to play with mages, to know how magic works in that "world" thats why is necessary deal with care with magic.

Ill show just as examples some "real" elemental systems

For Chinese/Taoist are know 5 elements instead of Occidental 4:
They Are:
Fire, Earth, Metal, Water and Wood.

These elements have two distinc Cicles, the Construtive and the Destructive cicle:

Constructive:

Fire makes Earth creates Metal holds Water nurtures Wood feeds Fire

Destructive:

Fire melts Metal cuts Wood consumes Earth damns Water extiguishes Fire.

This is an Example of a relationship between elements in magic, in Occidental 4 elements, we need see these relationships too to not only creates Opositions, but like
Water opposes Fire, then Water damage on a Fire monster is MAX, but what happen with Water damage on a Wind or a Earth monster?

We can assume that its 50% damage? maybe, but we can do a more complex and fun system

Since Earth and Water have a good relationship(see my other diagram) Water damage on Earth monster can have 50%(or 75%), but Water on Wind Monster can be 100% and damage on Fire can be 150%( or 200%)

the same must be done for other elements, wich one they are to makes its more complete system.
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Post by Talaroc » 19 Feb 2005, 18:16

The word "mana" is a real word, that comes from a native indian from Melanesia. The meaning of mana is the "Mystic Force from the Spirits of the Nature". Say that Mana means "Magic" is simplistic, and before the game "Secret of Mana" that word dont was that popular as is today.
I am aware of this. However, popular usage is not in accordance with historical significance. It's the same reason you don't see people around here painting swastikas (which were mysitc/religious symbols in many cultures long before the rise of the Nazis) on things. Even if they still hold the original meaning, their cultural meaning has shifted, and that effects how it will be recieved.
About Qaballa, it IS a Metaphorical Symbol!!! it do NOT have religious meaning, it only shows the relationship among the forces in its diagram, the diagram of emanations...its like a Chemical Table, but it deals on MYSTIC forces.
Same with this: http://gryphonsmoon.com/cat/express-you ... acle.t.jpg
It's nothing more than a metaphorical chart displaying the relationships of the basic elements and the universe as a whole. And yet, I wear one around my neck pretty regularly, since it still does hold deep religious significance. Anyway, my point was twofold: pulling something directly like that into the game is unoriginal and feels like theft, and those that practice Qabbala take it seriously.

I am fairly versed in the mystic, as it is a part of my own belief systems. Now, if you put up the Tree of Life as an example of a chart, fine, but you need to make that clearer; it seemed like you were saying we should just take that symbol as our own.

In terms of damage, here's my thoughts (bear in mind I'm pulling these numbers out of thin air, and basing it on my chart). I'll use the example of water. Damage against:
Fire: 150% (opposition)
Air: 100% (opposition to complimentary element)
Water: 30% (same element)
Earth: 50% (complimentary)
Time: 90% (yang)
Space: 70% (also yin)
Light: 100% (opposition to complimentary element)
Dark: 50% (complimentary)
Life: 100% (all elements do 100% to life, and life does 100% to all elements)

This sets up in-game opposition between yin-type mages and yang-type mages, as two "rival schools of thought" within the community.
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....

Post by Clef » 19 Feb 2005, 18:45

Talaroc

I must remember you that "your" chart is a Copy of mine...you?re using my idea as it were yours...(even it you changed a little, still youre using same grouping system i did first)

It would be nice of you make this clear...

Oh yes, I studied mystics deeply as well.
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Post by Talaroc » 19 Feb 2005, 18:54

Since my descriptions can be a bit esoteric at times, I'll see if I can whip up a graphic like Clef's to show my thoughts on elemental relationships.
Emphasis added.
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Post by Kyokai » 19 Feb 2005, 19:41

Ok ok ok. Hold it. Let's not get out of hand here.

We're all just sharing ideas and it's expected that some get rehashed without the author's permission. This is an Open Forum and you're making your ideas public property by posting them here. If anyone isn't comfortable with that, you may want to note it in your posts.

I'm not going to say that you can't use another's work as the basis for your own, because that's very counter-productive.

Remeber we're all trying to refine one another's ideas into the perfect system. Unless you have the first post on the thread, I'll find it hard to believe that anyone's idea isn't somewhat based on the ideas before it.

That being said, I'm the coordinator, not the nanny. If you keep fighting, I'll have Elven ban you both.

This is a freelance game, and we're all here because we have a special place for SoM in our gamers' hearts. Let's remember that, and work together, please.
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Post by Kyokai » 19 Feb 2005, 20:01

Also I hate to double post, but there will need to be a certain balance to the elements. To do this, I'm going to propose another elemental wheel graph:

__________Water
___Dark_____________Space

Air_________Life_________Earth

___Time_____________Light
___________Fire
(NO ONE STEAL MY CHART!!!):shock: :shock: :shock:

Let me explain now,
for a Fire Element attack, the effects are:
vs: water 200% damage (direct opposition)
vs: dark and space 150% (indirect opposition)
vs: air, earth, and life 100% (neutral)
vs: time and light 75% (indirect affiliation)
vs: fire 50% (direct affiliation)

This makes the balance between elements regular and predictable for mages. It's also fair to all schools. This is a mechanically sound model for damage.
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So what does the systems coordinator actually do? My job is to take your ideas for TMW and build them into working aspects of gameplay that can be implemented by the artists and programmers. If there's anything you think we can do better or differently, let me know.
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Post by Talaroc » 19 Feb 2005, 23:07

Gomen ne (sorry). I visit a bunch of debating forums; easy habit to slip into. Back to the task at hand, then.

Well, let's see. We've got three magic systems utilizing similar ideas, but with different layouts and damage percentages. How about this: I'll retool my own chart for both of the other two proposed systems (easy enough to do), so that there's a standard look to them for easy comparison, then we can set up a poll to see what people think would be the best? Damage percentages can be decided upon later, but it would be a good thing to have an element layout decided upon, so we've got something solid to base the magic system on, methinks.

If Clef and Kyokai agree to this, I'll get to work right away. Of course, if Clef's agreed on a nine-element system, I'll need to see how that changes his layout first.
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