Magic System --- Here is is!

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Clef
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Post by Clef » 24 Feb 2005, 20:54

Here the Mana Elemental(behind, fairy) and Mana Sage(on tree)

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Talaroc
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Post by Talaroc » 24 Feb 2005, 22:59

Wow. :shock: That's a really nice pic, clef. Particularly the plants; I can never get those to look right. How long did that drawing take?

I can put together a sprite for whatever design is chosen, so I'm not really partial to either design-wise.
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Post by Clef » 24 Feb 2005, 23:56

Thanks, it took 4 hours to do, 2 yesterday(drawing) and 2 today (art finish).
It can be More or less, when im drawing i lost sense of time.
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Post by Kyokai » 25 Feb 2005, 04:20

At this point I've updated the spirits' name list and swapped pictures of the sages for Clef's picture. I'll try to create pages for the rest of the sages and a more suitable backstory. I encourage you all to take a look at them and to give your thoughts on how they might be improved somewhat.
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Post by Talaroc » 25 Feb 2005, 07:29

Thoughts on time elemental page:
First off, I agree with Bear's comment; doom and erase are too powerful. Instant-death spells (or delayed instant-death) are heavily unbalanced in a multiplayer game (particularly when PvP is allowed).

Suggestions for alternate names for spells (just to make them sound more interesting)--
Time blade --> Temporal edge
Haste --> Accelerate

And again, as I stated earlier. I still would really like to see time magic be devoid of direct damage spells. People are not restricted to one type of magic; thus, to keep things interesting, most of the spells of different elements should be wildly different in effect. If time spells are for support magic, keep the focus on support magic. I know this raises potential balance issues, but the elements won't be unbalanced if you make the support, healing, and control magic just as powerful and useful as the combat magic. The only spells that I really don't mind different schools sharing are the "bestow"-type spells.

Other suggestions for time spells (some copied from my earlier post in this thread):
Theft of time--Single target. "Ages" the target, causing temporary stat reductions.
Chronos armor--Character effect. The next two times the character is hit, the damage is immediately undone, and the attacker is stunned for a few seconds.
Temporal wrinkle--Single targer. Creates an exact duplicate of the target to fight for you for a period of time before vanishing. Only works on monsters (and not bosses).
Sands of the hourglass--Area of effect. Enemies' attacks within the area are slowed to 25%, and casting to 50%. Your attacks within the area are boosted to 200% speed, and your casting to 150%. Does not effect movement speed.
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Post by Kyokai » 25 Feb 2005, 08:00

Good points Talaroc. I haven't updated that page in awhile, so I think I might try to do it by tommorrow. I also added some new NPCs to the NPC list:
http://themanaworld.sourceforge.net/wiki/?ImportantNPCs.

Like I said before, the direct damage spells are a necessary evil for balance. What if a monster is immune to all magic except time, and has high physical defense? You could cast slow and stun spells all day and never get any damage done to it. :shock:
I'm only requiring one, tiny damage spell per element. Secret of Mana had at least one attack spell per element (even light, which only the girl--who was strictly a support magic character--was able to use had a direct damage spell to deal with dark type bosses). I think we should follow their example. In all RPGs really, there is an offensive magic for each element (take Holy for example, a damage dealing spell based off your healing magic abilities). This isn't done just because it's a cool thing to do. It's necessary for system balance. Especially in an MMORPG, it gets important to be able to deal damage in multiple ways. (It will get really annoying in the space dungeon when none of the enemies can take magic damage :shock:).

This is something I'm quite positive about. I know you have a different opinion, and time (as well as other support elements) will probably have no more than that one damage spell. This is the best we can do and still maintain a balanced element system. I'm not telling you all this because I'm fed up with you asking, but because I want you to understand the necessity of things working this way. It doesn't make alot of logical sense, but the mechanical sense is more important in this case. :roll: I hope you undertand.

I'll try to work some of your suggestions for spell changes in. Don't forget that you are free to fill in or add to any of the spell lists. You don't have to ask me first, just post a notice here so I can check over them and make sure everything works fine when you're done.
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Post by Talaroc » 25 Feb 2005, 08:33

What if a monster is immune to all magic except time, and has high physical defense? You could cast slow and stun spells all day and never get any damage done to it.
That's exactly the point, though. Different magics for different uses. In such a game, even a mage carries a sword, and their magic is geared toward making sure that they can use it...and if, to use your later example, that monster is a boss, that "tiny damage spell" isn't going to do much. Additionally, adding stat-alteration spells like "Theft of Time" gets rid of a lot of the hassle.

I really don't agree that direct damage is necessary for system balance. Yes, SoM did it, but that's because their system was a lot more limited in scope, both potential and realized, than ours. Compensating for a lack of direct damage through increased effectiveness of support/control magic means that the "time mage" character is every bit as useful as any other, and in particular becomes invaluable as party support.

What I think the basic issue here is, is mode of thinking; I'm thinking along the lines of diversity and complexity, while you're looking toward equality. Now, I don't have any issue with equality (indeed, it's necessary for a balanced game), but it can be achieved in other ways. I think finding the most creative (within feasability) approach to each problem will help the game along the most.
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Post by Talaroc » 25 Feb 2005, 08:38

Oh yeah, forgot: I added a few new pages to the wiki.
http://themanaworld.sourceforge.net/wik ... eElemental
http://themanaworld.sourceforge.net/wik ... hosPenarae
http://themanaworld.sourceforge.net/wik ... rElemental

I dunno, they just popped into my head. I'm working on a pic for Garathos, and will post any others that pop in there.
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Post by Kyokai » 25 Feb 2005, 18:25

I liked your stories and elemental pages alot. I'll try to come with a more few of my own later on. Keep up the good work. :D
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Post by ElvenProgrammer » 25 Feb 2005, 18:53

Clef: I can kill for a drawing like that, if you manage to color it maybe we can add it somewhere in game or use it as a logo.
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Post by Talaroc » 07 Mar 2005, 02:55

New comments from browsing the wiki.

I don't like the idea of having "summon familiar" be a spell. I think, rather, they should be obtained through quests given (only to those of sufficient level of skill in that school of magic) at the appropriate temples. It means actually getting a familiar is a more difficult process (particularly if the quest difficulty is scaled to the characters' skill level), and frees up another element-specific spell for further distinction between the elements in terms of magical strategy.

Giving familiars the "double edged sword" property of increasing abilities of their element, and decreasing abilities of their opposing element, is a good idea, as is their increased/decreased stats. However, I don't like the mana-draining bit or their acting like the "mana shield" spell from Diablo (their damage taken goes to your mana). Familiars should be something both a little bit extraordinary and long-term; only experienced mages have them, but they hold on to them once they're there. Making one's mana take damage not only from every hit that the familiar takes, but just from having a familiar, will make people unlikely to want one when combined with the "double edged" effect. I know I sure wouldn't; the benefits don't outweigh the drawbacks. In terms of the familiar getting hit, just give them a hit point level and let them take damage like anything else, and just remove the slow drain effect.
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Post by WakkaCraft » 07 Mar 2005, 04:33

some of my favorite methods of balencing are great not because everything is the same but because everything is different.
"No! that is very wrong! Cling to your pathetic fable of fluid exchange!"

All the answers to your questions about life can be found in the book of Mark, chapter 17. Go ahead. Look it up.
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Post by Degraine » 21 Aug 2005, 14:36

Hello there. Short-time lurker, first time poster here.

This is a little tangental, considering the weighty discussions about element alignments anddamage ratios, but I had a thought the other day that I didn't want to forget.

I suggest that quests for spells (or access to the element, or what have you) generally reflect the philosophy of the element. As an example, Fire quests would most likely involve 'better living through extreme firepower' objectives, while Water may require the prospective mage to do something like keep a group of NPCs alive while they do the killing, or try to deliver a package (anyone who's done the escort mission near the northwest edge of Ashenvale knows how useful a healer is on that quest).
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Post by AndyG314 » 18 Oct 2005, 04:47

I think we could suit the game better with these elements:
Fire <-> Water
Earth <-> Air
Light <-> Dark
Time <-> Moon/Space
Mana/Life
I like this system best
"spiret" seems too much like mana, and this scheme is the same as the temple scheme.
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Post by PranaBR » 20 Oct 2005, 23:32

an advice for all (srry im much philosofich =D )

forget the problems, dont create fights now, you must search team to incorporate in your equip you souldnt spread the team, together it, its a great mistake, if you think that is said for your person forget that, think just in magic developments and thw how much each person can help, words are just words, if all ignore the words the world would be fine, dont answer what you think that is said for u, just forget and look understand the feelings of the other ppl, if you dont agree dont be rude, just say lets continue working to improve this, because this actual system i dont like, then look for friendship, ask for what the guy think of that mode, i hope that these words are applied for the good of all just comment to increase your potential, if you has been invited for enterprise wether you dont learn live with diferences you will be demited, ;D
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