Combat manauvers

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What do you think about combat manauvers

Good! I like that
1
11%
Good! But I recommend some changes
2
22%
Never mind! I didn't play with fighters
0
No votes
Bad! This idea sucks!
2
22%
Bad! Will only give more work to the artists
4
44%
 
Total votes: 9
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Talaroc
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Post by Talaroc » Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:40 am

*sigh* You have got to be friggin' kidding me.

The combining of all bars into one was one of the irritants grouped under what I said was "very poorly implemented" in SoM. No gradiation I suppose I can live with (although, would it become possible with the addition of additional servers?), but I really couldn't stand the way that cooldowns were done in that game.

At the very least, do two: one for sprinting, one for attacks/magic. To combine those two is absolutely rediculous, unrealistic to an extreme degree, and robs the game of a number of potential playing strategies (my favored one, the skirmisher, included).
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Post by SuriKatta » Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:17 am

I'm gunna pop in here and add my two cents... because I really do think that there would be a mistake being made if you implemented SoM's cooldown system into the fighting system of tMW.

I was also quite displeased with it... It didn't let me attack the enemies the way I wanted to, and it just generally irritated the hell out of me. Part of why I actually stopped playing the game, once I got into the actual fighting, because the system was just too much of a bother to use.

Sure, there will people who have used it and played it... but it really doesn't give many options for attacking. It really restricts movements and such... and people aren't going to want to play the game if it's hard to use the controls/fight things. Tenfold if people get frustrated with it and can't kill things at least /somewhat/ easily.

Perhaps the bar could be made into one single bar... but have 2 seperate colors implemented on it? ... Let's say... red and blue. The blue shows sprinting, and the red shows attacks/magic? When the colors overlap, the bar would be green... and then, you can also see the difference in the reduction of stamina by which color is showing as the bar depletes...?
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Post by Kyokai » Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:43 am

hmmm... I have to think about this more. We're going to get the bar in place the way I've outlined, then we can see what we can and can't do from there.

I don't mind having extra bars, but it is extra server traffic as well as downright complicated. I don't think all the users would appreciate having to use 2 bars. We'll see how one plays, and add another if it seems manageable enough.
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Post by Talaroc » Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:08 am

Server traffic, I know nothing about.

Playability...as long as the graphics were kept tight, I don't think anyone would have a problem with having their eyes on multiple things, particularly real gamers. I can barely make sense of the cluttered screens my friends play with in RO and WoW, but they don't have any problem. Especially if we're using the "circle on the ground" menu system, there won't be as much to fill the screen anyway, so an extra little bar won't make much of a difference.
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Post by Mra » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:08 am

Anyways, Kyokai, if you mean me when talking about 'developers think this is too hard to implement': I didnt say that, even if its more complicated to do 2 bars, it isnt that much work and I don't really care much if we have two or just one bar, I, as a developer (but i dont know, what the others will do..), will just implement, what you want me to implement...
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Post by Kyokai » Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:44 pm

Mra wrote:Anyways, Kyokai, if you mean me when talking about 'developers think this is too hard to implement': I didnt say that, even if its more complicated to do 2 bars, it isnt that much work and I don't really care much if we have two or just one bar, I, as a developer (but i dont know, what the others will do..), will just implement, what you want me to implement...
Have a nice day
I meant that when we discussed it you seemed more in favor of just one bar too see how it worked first (at least this is what I drew from the conversation). It don't doubt your ability to do it, I just meant that it would be difficult to do all in one step. :D I imagine with all the input we've gotten, we may have to do a second bar soon, but not yet.

By the way, thanks again for your help Mra, I've posted the new dialog. It should be finished later this evening if I get the chance.
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Post by Rotonen » Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:57 pm

The system should be diverse, but easy to learn. Addictive in other words. One should always be able to find new ways to do reasonable damage.. So there has to be the stamina bar and the mana bar. But how would these two relate into each other? It could be built in a way that most of the skills use both, but in a different ratio. And there could also be attributes affecting that ratio. That would ensure individality and would make very different combinations equally strong. (I don't really like the powerplaying in the modern MMORPGs these days, because there only seems to be "the best combination of stats and skills" for everything, it kinda eats away the immersion of roleplaying if you must fit in the mold of "you won't be strong if you won't be like this and that").
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Post by Bjørn » Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:58 pm

Having the 5,5,5,5,20,20,... way of charging up actually introduces some player skill, unlike 5,10,15,20,20,... It's a skill in timing your next attack just after the 20 is reached. In the latter it doesn't really matter when you attack. Mind you I'm not trying to say we should go with either way, I mean I would prefer if attacking wouldn't take so much of your time, and rather you'd be able to chat while killing a monster.
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Post by Kyokai » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:15 pm

Rotonen wrote:The system should be diverse, but easy to learn. Addictive in other words. One should always be able to find new ways to do reasonable damage.. So there has to be the stamina bar and the mana bar. But how would these two relate into each other? It could be built in a way that most of the skills use both, but in a different ratio. And there could also be attributes affecting that ratio. That would ensure individality and would make very different combinations equally strong. (I don't really like the powerplaying in the modern MMORPGs these days, because there only seems to be "the best combination of stats and skills" for everything, it kinda eats away the immersion of roleplaying if you must fit in the mold of "you won't be strong if you won't be like this and that").
I quite agree. I'm working to make it so that you can become powerful no matter what path (or combination of paths) you choose. Finding a healthy balance between simplicity and depth is one of the harder aspects of gameplay design, but I think we're getting closer by putting all our ideas together like this.
Bjorn wrote:Having the 5,5,5,5,20,20,... way of charging up actually introduces some player skill, unlike 5,10,15,20,20,... It's a skill in timing your next attack just after the 20 is reached. In the latter it doesn't really matter when you attack. Mind you I'm not trying to say we should go with either way, I mean I would prefer if attacking wouldn't take so much of your time, and rather you'd be able to chat while killing a monster.
hmm... maybe not chatting per se... but part of the engine in SoM was that misses were way less common than normal RPGs. You could dodge attacks just by moving your character, so you had to dodge and weave while fighting, rather than just hack and slash like modern MMORPGs. The non-gradiated cooldown meant that you couldn't stand in one spot and hammer away at a monser, you had to use your wits and maneuvers, not just stats. I also want to capture this in TMW.
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Post by Bjørn » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:26 pm

Well I know SoM and the way in which it uses player keyboard skill. I think this is fine for an action game you play on your TV where all you have is a joystick, but I don't like this in TMW which is a MMORPG you play with a keyboard and where you chat with other players. As such I think fighting a monster could mostly consist of targetting it, and activating the way you want to attack it. The player walks to it automatically and does the fighting automatically (still, the way you specified).
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Post by Kyokai » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:50 pm

Bjørn wrote:As such I think fighting a monster could mostly consist of targetting it, and activating the way you want to attack it. The player walks to it automatically and does the fighting automatically (still, the way you specified).
I have to say that I strongly disagree. I think Elven's vision when he started TMW was specifically to break out of that mold and create a real action/adventure style RPG, rather than another hack and slash game. If you look at his website, you can see how he got the original inspiration for TMW.
Elven's Project wrote: For sure many of you knows the RPG MAKER, but have you ever thought that real time fightings are more fun?
The action elements were my favorite part of SoM. I think everyone else would also be disappointed if we cut that out.
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Post by Talaroc » Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:09 pm

I agree with Kyokai. Combat systems like in CT or FF never really appealed to me, as it seemed to take all the skill out of combat and make the game seem a little overstructured. It also, as I noted above, deprived me of my favored style of combat; dash in, smack 'em quick, dash back out and keep 'em at arms length until I'm ready to attack again.

Now, I see what you're saying about greadiated cooldowns, Bjorn, but this touches on another, related system: knockback. What the effect upon a monster or character is when they get hit drastically effects how you can engage your opponentry. I agree, getting into hanck-and-slash mode would be a problem, if we used the knockback method that SoM used (long knockback time, you can get hit anytime during it and are defenseless). But, I don't think we should be using that system, due to it's inherint flaws (when playing SoM, ever get pushed back against a wall by more than one opponent? You're basically toast if their attacks alternate). Now, a quick knockback time, coupled with a percentage-based auto-block (that still works, though at a lower percentage, while being knocked back), and only falling down (becoming totally defenseless) from really strong hits, would quickly eliminate that problem; yes, you could stand there and just keep smacking them, but they could smack you right back (this is a legitimate style of play, if you're playing a melee tank), rather than getting trapped by it.
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Post by Bjørn » Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:47 pm

Well what I'm suggesting is more Ragnarok Online and Saga of Ryzom style, nothing like FF which I hated and basically caused me not to play any of the FF games.
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Post by Rotonen » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:30 am

Kyokai, as you've previoysly said, the system should drive one to specialize into something and hence make only high level specialization extremely powerful. This would also force diverse partying on players and different party combinations would also be an interesting aspect when it comes into player versus player wars.
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Post by imorgado » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:07 am

I think that SoM like combats is very nice to a MMORPG, some player skill should be put ingame.

Character speed in combat should be different, based on stats. Attacks should de done by player, dodges too. Parry and block, should be done automaticly based on defense skill or anything similar.

We're creating a new rpg not porting RO to open source ;-)
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