Combat System Final Vote

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What combat do you prefer?

Indirectly Controlled Combat, like RO and Ryzom
11
34%
Directly Controlled Combat, like SoM and Zelda
21
66%
 
Total votes: 32
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Talaroc
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Post by Talaroc » 08 Mar 2005, 04:16

I'm no expert at running a server, but I am fairly tech-savy, and it seems to me that the fact that Maple Story is side-scrolling means there's quite a bit less data to be transferred back and forth between the client and server.
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Post by SuriKatta » 08 Mar 2005, 04:31

I vote Indirectly controlled.

Directly controlling attacks on a single server with potentially hundreds of people is the direction one would go if they seek metaphorical mass-suicide.
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Post by Kyokai » 08 Mar 2005, 04:39

Talaroc wrote:I'm no expert at running a server, but I am fairly tech-savy, and it seems to me that the fact that Maple Story is side-scrolling means there's quite a bit less data to be transferred back and forth between the client and server.
The amount of data is the same. Just an X, Y position, and the character's graphic is included in the server transfer (which is the same either combat system). For direct controlled, our system would have as much downstream traffic as MapleStory, basically, we only transfer player commands. (which are extremely tiny packets)

Some of you are probably saying "what about my stats, my hp, mp, and so on?" The truth is, these things only need to be updated clientside under certain circumstances. When does your HP change? Only when you get hit. When does the player need to know what the level of all his skills is? Only when he opens the skill window. So you see, these things have a very small effect on client-server traffic.
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Post by i » 08 Mar 2005, 07:00

Kyokai I still dont recoment direct battle system. Bandwith usage is 4 times larger that usage in case indirect battle system. Even if server will have very good ISP it will be lagging.
Maybe u could find good anti-lag solution in direct battle system?
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Post by maci » 08 Mar 2005, 14:43

yeah find a anti-lag thingy and everything is fine.. i would even vote for direct then .. btw i didnt vote yet :p
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Post by Kyokai » 08 Mar 2005, 15:16

i wrote:Kyokai I still dont recoment direct battle system. Bandwith usage is 4 times larger that usage in case indirect battle system. Even if server will have very good ISP it will be lagging.
Maybe u could find good anti-lag solution in direct battle system?
I don't see how you can say all that. 4 times larger? all our downstream and upstream would be well within the 1 MBps projected limit for up to 800+ players. I've done the math, if you care to read below.
maci wrote:yeah find a anti-lag thingy and everything is fine.. i would even vote for direct then .. btw i didnt vote yet :p
I just got through telling you how the lag is the same either way in my previous post. :shock:
If you want to see my calculations, they are here http://themanaworld.sourceforge.net/wiki/?CombatSystem just like they have been for a long time now. I'm quite confident in my predictions on this issue. :)

The only difference with realtime control is that extra lag (not the normal amount--and extra lag will occur the same amount with either system) can look worse to the player in real time. The fact of the matter is, upstream traffic is the same both ways, and downstream traffic is only slightly higher with direct control.

This is purely a stylistic issue, not a feasibility one. Please vote according to the style you think best suits the game. :)
Last edited by Kyokai on 09 Mar 2005, 05:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Gustav » 08 Mar 2005, 19:19

Looks like I just tied it up. :-S 8-8
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Post by gene » 09 Mar 2005, 19:26

If an indirect attack method is used the game will be more like Final Fantasy, or with the way Mra describes it will be like Everquest. So, please excuse the following bold words:

This is a Secret of Mana clone. If it doesn't use the direct attack method it will no longer be a Secret of Mana clone.

Yes, "direct" will use more bandwidth than "indirect", but keep in mind (as Kyokai stated) it is a 2D environment, players and attacks do not traverse the Z plane. The game can handle the extra traffic needed to use the direct attack method.

I've played Counter-strike over dial-up with some lag issues. This will run much better as long as it's coded efficiently.
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Post by maci » 09 Mar 2005, 21:42

ever played counter strike with 1000 people on the same server ? :P
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Post by gene » 09 Mar 2005, 22:14

Have you ever played a Tetris Clone that was a RPG?
Have you ever played a Super Mario World clone that was a FPS?

My point is if you change the fighting style you are no longer cloning Secret of Mana. Aside from the story the attack method is what set it apart from other games in the same genre.

Sometimes you have to sacrifice performance for functionality.
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Post by Talaroc » 09 Mar 2005, 23:41

gene wrote:This is a Secret of Mana clone. If it doesn't use the direct attack method it will no longer be a Secret of Mana clone.
Really? Is it? So that's why we're making our own story, world, graphics, sounds, magic system, interaction model, and so on. No, see, what this is is a new game that's rooted in the style of SoM. If we were just cloning it everything would be a hell of a lot easier, not to mention more prone to our being on the receiving end of legal action.
gene wrote:Yes, "direct" will use more bandwidth than "indirect", but keep in mind (as Kyokai stated) it is a 2D environment, players and attacks do not traverse the Z plane. The game can handle the extra traffic needed to use the direct attack method.
See, although I would ideally prefer direct, I voted indirect, because after having talked to a couple gamer and programmer friends of mine, I'm not so sure that that's an accurate assessment. I'd rather see the game have a slightly different bent to it than be laggy.
gene wrote:Have you ever played a Tetris Clone that was a RPG?
Have you ever played a Super Mario World clone that was a FPS?
Logical fallacy. You're talking about two different types of games. We're talking about two different styles within one type of game. No matter which we go with, it's still an MMORPG. And it's still not a clone.
gene wrote:Sometimes you have to sacrifice performance for functionality.
Functionality being defined as...? If you mean "just for the sake of being more like SoM," then I know a ton of gamers who would vehemently disagree with you on that.
Last edited by Talaroc on 09 Mar 2005, 23:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by WakkaCraft » 09 Mar 2005, 23:41

The Secret of Mana was not multiplayer, and thus had not possibilities of team play. Usually, different members of the team have different roles. Let's go over some traditional MMORPG roles and see what the difference real-time to indirect has on them.

Tank: Stands there, gets hit, and attacks monster as often as able. Has high defence, and is pretty stoic in general. No difference I can think of for control differece.

Support: stands in back and heals the group, throwing out buffs and whatnot. 99% unaffected by direct/indirect

"Mage": uses heavy non-physical damage, usually has area of effect attacks. This class could be somewhat helped by direct control, it really only applies to soloing.

"Archer": uses ranged physical attacks, less squishy than mage, but less powerful offensively. Pretty much same story as mage for control difference.

Skirmisher: Relies on evasion and/or some method other than defence to go toe to toe with enemies, but is also highly mobile. Considering one of his attributes is fast attack speed, some sort of auto attack is highly useful. Not affected much by direct/indirect control.

Naturally, people will build hybrids, etc. but some variation or another of these roles are used. What I see as the cool thing about mana world is the ability to have complete control over the build of your character.

So, I suppose what I'm getting at is this: Really, when all is said and done, is there any real difference between direct and indirect combat? (other than the fact that direct could be extremely annoying for melee classes)
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Post by gene » 10 Mar 2005, 01:17

Talaroc wrote: Really? Is it? So that's why we're making our own story, world, graphics, sounds, magic system, interaction model, and so on. No, see, what this is is a new game that's rooted in the style of SoM. If we were just cloning it everything would be a hell of a lot easier, not to mention more prone to our being on the receiving end of legal action.
So it will look like SoM, but not play like it? Doesn't seem like it's rooted in the style of SoM to me.

I didn't play Secret of Mana just because it looked pretty, I played it because it was fun. Having the game fight for me isn't fun.
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Post by Bjørn » 10 Mar 2005, 02:46

gene wrote:So it will look like SoM, but not play like it? Doesn't seem like it's rooted in the style of SoM to me.

I didn't play Secret of Mana just because it looked pretty, I played it because it was fun. Having the game fight for me isn't fun.
Actually, I think it's because of reactions like this that we should drop the whole SoM or RO referencing thing in describing TMW, especially in places like HappyPengiun or SourceForge. We're not trying to clone either of these games, they were only our main examples of inspiration, and actually by now we're moving further and further away from either.

So I suggest we try to describe otherwise, for example:

"The Mana World (TMW) is a serious effort to create an innovative free and open source MMORPG. TMW uses 2D graphics and aims to create a large and diverse interactive world. Other aims include an elaborate skill-based character progression model and a flexible distributed server architecture."

Not perfect, but I prefer how it avoids referring to any previous game.
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Post by Kyokai » 10 Mar 2005, 04:04

Bjørn wrote:"The Mana World (TMW) is a serious effort to create an innovative free and open source MMORPG. TMW uses 2D graphics and aims to create a large and diverse interactive world. Other aims include an elaborate skill-based character progression model and a flexible distributed server architecture."
I think you do have a point there... but to scrap all reference to our roots... hmm... that's something we'd have to let Elven decide on.

Also, you might put in something like "Dynamic, player determined economy, class, and political systems," and "Immersive, involving, and revolutionary gameplay options," just for spice. :D
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So what does the systems coordinator actually do? My job is to take your ideas for TMW and build them into working aspects of gameplay that can be implemented by the artists and programmers. If there's anything you think we can do better or differently, let me know.
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