Life after Rapid Attack

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Sertraline
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Life after Rapid Attack

Post by Sertraline » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:46 am

Here are some of my observations and suggestions on the subject:
  • More difficult monsters that were once hard to hit are now much more difficult to hit. Their "dodge" value should be lowered considerably to respect this.
  • A group of enemies that most players are very used to killing within 5-10 seconds now takes 30-45 seconds. Ideally, this should be 20 seconds or less, to keep balance but also to keep the active players from growing weary. I would suggest either lowering monsters' HP values, raising the base damage of all weapons, or both.
  • Instead of or in addition to raising the base damage of all weapons, perhaps it would be worth the effort to finish the last details on some of the stronger weapons that have not been introduced and make quests for them in-game.
  • Players must have their stats reset as well so that they can be reassigned. Most players set these values according to Rapid Attack dynamics under the impression that it would never be fixed, so this is only fair.
  • Because players will have to spend more time training when they wish to level, perhaps they should be compensated for this time by adding a faster way to travel. A simple NPC who takes money to warp players instantly would be sufficient.
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Re: Life after Rapid Attack

Post by bigglesworth » Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:58 am

Hi, Sert, here's my two cents...

1) agree, lower the dodge/agility of the monsters, now that players need more statistical power to kill monsters.

2) disagree, do not alter the monsters beyond their dodge. a monster's stats make the monster the creature it is.

3) disagree, do not introduce superior weapons. With today's monsters, our new helms and body armor are sufficient. in the future, new monsters will demand new weapons and tactics.

4) agree, a stats reset is necessary if we keep the same characters. if the team zeros our stats, allow us to re-distribute them, apropos to our level. if character levels must be touched, then zero everything (money/items/stats).

5) disagree, the tmw world today is small enough to walk through. in the future, when the world is large, warps would be a pleasant addition.
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Re: Life after Rapid Attack

Post by Superkoop » Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:22 pm

My opinion on this is nearly the same as bigglesworth, with the exception of the last point. I think there should be one more warp point near the snow town or the woodland village. Because right now, dying in that area really kinda sucks, since you have to walk ALL THE WAY back. And for weaker players, it's not that enjoyable to try getting back through the snakes and black scorpions.

Other than that, my opinion on the subject is with bigglesworth. =)
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Re: Life after Rapid Attack

Post by Sertraline » Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:50 pm

bigglesworth wrote:3) disagree, do not introduce superior weapons. With today's monsters, our new helms and body armor are sufficient. in the future, new monsters will demand new weapons and tactics.
Yes, armor that has been introduced for the first time in the past few recent events/quests has been excellent and consistently they have been getting better. I wonder why weapons have not seen the same improvements, in fact, they've been the same for years so far as I can tell. I don't think the vast majority of players choosing between two weapons is balanced, and it seems that their values better fit a "rapid attack" dynamic. Longer range bows which would have been absurd under rapid attack are now much more feasible, so why not now? Etc.

Certainly without rapid attack gameplay will demand new tactics, however, as it is, the current values for monsters/weapons make combat veeeeeerrrry slloooooooooowwwwwww. Sure, teamplay may improve this, but consider the many incoming players who don't have a community of friends to team up with. The active playerbase will only shrink without that influx, and when the active playerbase has shrunk enough, teamplay just won't be feasible. :(
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Re: Life after Rapid Attack

Post by Crush » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:21 pm

New weapons like swords, axes or polearms would require new animation phases for the playerset. The current attack animation does only really work for knives. There have been some initiatives to add said animation phases but they all died.
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Re: Life after Rapid Attack

Post by Ces » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:29 pm

Superkoop wrote:My opinion on this is nearly the same as bigglesworth, with the exception of the last point. I think there should be one more warp point near the snow town or the woodland village. Because right now, dying in that area really kinda sucks, since you have to walk ALL THE WAY back. And for weaker players, it's not that enjoyable to try getting back through the snakes and black scorpions.
What a tired mind suggests: The player can buy special BeamMeUpScotty-charges from Kirk or Spock, and when used (either they can only be used from a specific location, or from almost anywhere) the player is teleported/beamed to Kirk, Spock and Snow Town. Fantasy setting—no. But a use for Spock and Kirk other than memorable photos.

If any warp points or whatever ever are implemented I sincerely wish that walking to get there would still be a viable option (saving money or the like).

Personally I do not see a need for any warp points at this time, the world is still quite small, and walking doesn’t take too long. The beach mobs aren’t too hard to avoid with a little timing and/or running around. ;)
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Re: Life after Rapid Attack

Post by 5t3v3 » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:45 am

The only thing I think is necessarily is lowering dodge. Perhaps even so that only the archers really need dexterity. That would definitely balance the different classes.
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Re: Life after Rapid Attack

Post by Sertraline » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:59 am

A friend of mine took the task upon himself to play around with the monster/equipment values on his own server so that the game is a bit faster and more balanced without rapid attack. When I asked him last how it was going, he said it was very slow since he has to try each monster at different [player] levels for each new tweak to the values until he finds a balance, or at least something that feels right.

This work could be accomplished much faster if some programmer out there could make a program that would import the monster/equipment XMLs and calculate damage based on user-inputted levels and stats.

It would go even quicker if someone proposed a solid guideline for how difficult monsters should be—perhaps I've overlooked one on the wiki? For example (and this is only an example): a player with reasonable equipment for his level should be able to deal 5-10% damage to a challenging monster at his level; a player with reasonable equipment should be able to deal 20-40% damage to an easy monster at his level, etc.
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Re: Life after Rapid Attack

Post by 5t3v3 » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:35 pm

another alternative, leave the monsters as they are, but hit-rate of melee weapons is no longer decided by dex but by agil. I think that would balance things between warriors and archers
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Re: Life after Rapid Attack

Post by Black Don » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:52 pm

5t3v3 wrote:another alternative, leave the monsters as they are, but hit-rate of melee weapons is no longer decided by dex but by agil. I think that would balance things between warriors and archers
or dex helps speed and accuracy for bows (maybe a damage bonus for ranged weapons)
agility helps Speed and accuracy for swords (also increases running speed and doge)
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Re: Life after Rapid Attack

Post by Crush » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:00 pm

We won't bother tweaking the eAthena game mechanics. We are just trying to make the best of it until TMWServ is finished.
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Re: Life after Rapid Attack

Post by Sertraline » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:20 pm

Crush wrote:We won't bother tweaking the eAthena game mechanics. We are just trying to make the best of it until TMWServ is finished.
That's not the impression I got from the website and the update file...
b_lindeijer @ http://themanaworld.org wrote:We realize that one of them, a fix for the fast attack bug, has changed the gameplay and balance. Please know that we welcome any feedback from you regarding this change and also suggestions for further changes.
TMW Development Team @ Update file wrote:We understand this changes gameplay quite a bit, and as a result, the game will probably need to be adjusted. ... Suggestions are welcome!
Besides, since TMWServ won't have rapid attack anyway, I think it is worth it to reconsider these values.
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Re: Life after Rapid Attack

Post by redwolf » Mon May 12, 2008 7:08 pm

well, at least as far as kill time is concerned, i agree with sert. more than once i hav come close to falling asleep at my computer fighting a large crowd of mountain snakes, and i'm not exaggerating.

on weapons, i believe that at least two of the weapons on Blame's server, the rock knife and the naginata, should be implemented in HARD quests in game, given their high power. i suggest we add an item to the game (hard rocks, maybe?) in order to get the rock knife, and an insanely large amount of iron ore (around 15 or 20, at least) for the naginata. also, i personally have had enough of bows. i suggest that we find a way to implement the Bone Darts ingame.
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