The Mana World Forums

maybe it isn't against the rules but ho doesn't hate drop stealer's??
Anyway i dont know if i should post this , and if it is useful or has accurate info , dont know if this is really ethical but players have the right to know
i found this at my clans webpage:
http://holymanaclan.webs.com/blacklist.htm

AFAIK only Cagemanz ever added to or wrote on that page and it hasn't been updated since he retired (someone do correct me if I'm wrong). Either way, I personally think it's kind of crass to keep an online list of all the people who get your goat, and I never used it during my duration as leader.

I did post in it to, not just cagemanz, and I see nothing unethical about it.

1. I believe that as a clan we should be free to accept/refuse any members based on our own criteria. The only thing we ask for is for players to behave well, so in my opinion that's rather "open".
1. We need a shared file between leaders of the clan to see when those members apply for memberships, that's why it is online rather then just a file on leader's desktop.
2. The page is not directly linked to anywhere (except here now), so you have to really look in order to find it.
3. It's not a privacy issue since we only note down names of online characters.

Oh btw, most of these players have already been reported on this forum to, so this isn't really new stuff ^_^

Like 5t3v3 said it was there to help out the clan as much as possible. By sorting out the asshats in the best way, it gave us more time to spend on the dedicated clan members.

LoL i have o take the drops XD.

i have kill the Jacko but no take the drop.

Being a member of the HMC requires members to conduct themselves in the game as outlined in the clans mission statement policy. It is not just about events and rewards. Perhaps the blacklist is no longer necessary, but it does serve as a reminder to members and newcomers.

Personally, I think this does more harm than it does good, but if the clan wants to keep it, of course it should be kept.

Hi,

I know that as a non-member I don't really have a say in this, but as an external observer my opinion is that the blacklist (a) is now largely obsolete, (b) is inherently easy to abuse, (c) is unlikely to have any positive effect (what spammer/dropstealer cares about this list?) and (d) makes the HMC look bad (`so you think that you are the moral high ground and can decide who is good and who is bad?', to put it somewhat pointedly.)

-- fate

I see nothing wrong with it, all it does is show that the clan is serious about it's image. And that if you're not going to behave, you can't join the clan.
IMO it's not aimed at spammers or botters, but rather for potential clan member, and present clan members to see that they need to behave, and if they start acting bad, they will kicked out.

fate wrote:Hi,

I know that as a non-member I don't really have a say in this, but as an external observer my opinion is that the blacklist (a) is now largely obsolete, (b) is inherently easy to abuse, (c) is unlikely to have any positive effect (what spammer/dropstealer cares about this list?) and (d) makes the HMC look bad (`so you think that you are the moral high ground and can decide who is good and who is bad?', to put it somewhat pointedly.)

-- fate

Hi fate, with all due respect for your opinion; I do wonder:
1. How would this be "easy to abuse"? What sort of abuse could come from this?
2. Why does this make us look bad? Like I said I see nothing immoral about keeping such a list, especially not when it is with the intention of protecting the integrity of our clan by making sure our members behave.

Steve,

1. How would this be "easy to abuse"? What sort of abuse could come from this?

I don't know who has write access to your HMC clan pages. I have no doubt that you and Dave and Vink and most others I can think of would be quite cautious when it comes to adding people there, i.e., only add characters based on some solid evidence (though judging from Vink's comment I expect that she wouldn't add anyone at all). However, I have seen people do very strange things around here, both when upset and when drunk, and so I am worried that someone else might erroneously add someone because of a personal grudge, or because they happened to believe in some random person's unconfirmed report.

2. Why does this make us look bad? Like I said I see nothing immoral about keeping such a list, especially not when it is with the intention of protecting the integrity of our clan by making sure our members behave.

Both of these goals are important, and I agree that you may occasionally need forceful means (demotion, expulsion etc.) to implement them. However, a public blacklist-- i.e., a list of names that effectively publicly humiliates some players-- to me conveys the image of a grudge-carrying bunch of elitists, which is very far away from my personal perception of the HMC. A sentence along the lines of `we have expelled members in the past because of poor conduct and we will continue to do so if necessary' underneath some set of rules of conduct that all new members are pointed to would seem more reasonable and quite sufficiently threatening to me.

-- fate

Well the idea was never to intimidate in the first place, this page was just meant to be between leaders, to notify each other of which members are banned/bared so that we'd know to look out for 'm when these people wouldn't apply/reapply. I grant that we didn't try very hard to hide it indeed, but it wasn't linked to either.
As for your fear of abuse, that's sort of a moot issue. I mean if leaders will let personal grudges cloud their judgment on who to place on that list, then we have other things, which would damage our integrity more severely to worry about beside the existence of a lil' list. Or to put it in other words, if leaders start getting corrupt, we have a problem despite there being a list or not.

I agree that the list, at least as it is now, makes the HMC look bad.

If you take a look at it, you might notice a few problems:

• How can you prove that someone stole drops? If you can't prove it, is it really fair to blacklist people because of it?
• Several of the comments do not properly explain why they were blacklisted.
• Words like "me" and "I" cause confusion. I think you should write the name or rephrase it in a more general way.
• The section called "Annoying people". Who has never been annoying to anyone? I think this should be rephrased or removed.

In fact, I suggest that we keep only the people who have been banned in the list, with a proper description of their crimes, and with a link to the proof. If there is no proof, I suggest no list, especially not a public one.

Each person on it did something cage or I witnessed ourself unless otherwise specified. It would be rather insane that we need proof to ban some one as leaders after having witnessed it ourself. Also the annoying people weren't just your average annoyance, otherwise that list would have been full of names. I just called it annoying because it listed miscellaneous rude behavior (like racial attacks on other players to name one). Anyway, the link is dead now.

I see, but "miscellaneous rude behavior" would have been better than "annoying people", I think.