TMW's Class System (or something like it)

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TMW's Class System (or something like it)

Post by Kyokai » 30 Apr 2005, 06:54

http://themanaworld.org/wiki/?ClassSystem

This is the proposed new class system, whereby players will create their custom classes from various ability groups. It's not wholly complete yet.

Feel free to post your ideas, revisions, or additions on this thread so I can review and implement them. Anything that needs clearing up, please feel free to ask below.
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Post by Darrin » 30 Apr 2005, 09:47

i like the idea but 1 problem...............
your forgot about a archer... were the good ol archer a rpg isnt a rpg with a archer lol other than that i like your idea... and you guys reading this forum should log in more often i get bored by myself 70% of the time(i mean log into the game...)
bibi for now cya all latter
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Post by Talaroc » 30 Apr 2005, 10:18

I like it also, but yes, archer needs to be present, as should monk (heavy unarmed combat and light healing/magic). There's probably more too, I'll have to think on that. Variety is good, after all...
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Post by Maester Pixel » 30 Apr 2005, 10:35

I find it interesting as well. The only thing that seems to bother me though is the Healer class that you mentioned, I would hope that you would change it later into something more appropriate, such as a White Mage, Priest or something along the line. Now if you ask me "Healer" sounds more like an attribute/skill rather then a class (job), right?
Last edited by Maester Pixel on 30 Apr 2005, 10:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by nym » 30 Apr 2005, 10:40

I myself dont really like the idea of general "class" types, i would rather have the player able to fully customize their character by building up certain skills (which are available to every character, this is a very loose skill system). By building certain skills up you gain access to even more advanced skills in an area (but are still able to build other skill areas).

This idea is centralized about certain skill bases, generally without any "specialty classes" (like in most other RPG's) and allows a player to build the character _they_ want. But this system also allows people to create classic specialized classes also by allowing skills areas to be totally specialized on. For example, a player might want an all round class which has experience in all major skill bases, while another player might specialize in a certain area such as magic. Then instead of identify by strict areas, players are classified by their skill areas by an algorithm which will calculate the area most appropriate (but the player can change this classification by building other skills).

While this has similarities to Kyokai's system, it is much more general.


There we go, thats how i think the "class system" (if you can call it that ;)) can be done. :)
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Post by Darrin » 30 Apr 2005, 10:48

hmm after thinking about it it would be better to be able to costumize your character anyway you want so im sorry kyokai but ima go with nym idea
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Post by Bjørn » 30 Apr 2005, 11:02

I see a huge array of interesting modifiers that could be gained from wearing enchanted items or armor, drinking special mixes, eating special cakes or casting a magical spell.

I don't really like the idea of archetypes at the moment. To me it seems too restrictive, as well as it's adding an unnecessary layer of "class" properties which should already be present with classes being defined by the skill levels.

So I think I'll want to stick with the guilds idea. A player simply has a set of many skills. The player can join a guild which helps specialize towards a certain goal. The guild will for example direct the player on quests or reward with items that suit members of the guild. Ultimately the level a player has at a guild would translate to a title, which is something other players would be able to read too.
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Post by Kyokai » 30 Apr 2005, 18:55

Darrin wrote:i like the idea but 1 problem...............
your forgot about a archer... were the good ol archer a rpg isnt a rpg with a archer lol other than that i like your idea... and you guys reading this forum should log in more often i get bored by myself 70% of the time(i mean log into the game...)
bibi for now cya all latter
Sometimes names can be decieving. The Swashbuckler archetype specializes in accuracy and hunting, which would make it a good addition to an archer class. Mixing in a few levels of Brawler could help you get bow skills alot faster too. Once you build this custom class, you can just name it "Archer" and everyone will know that that is what you are.
Talaroc wrote:I like it also, but yes, archer needs to be present, as should monk (heavy unarmed combat and light healing/magic). There's probably more too, I'll have to think on that. Variety is good, after all...
Build a class with a high Brawler level (8), and maybe some finesse Swashbuckler (2), and you name it "Monk" and have it specialize with hand-to-hand weapons. You should be able to do this relatively easily with the custom class system.
Maester Pixel wrote:I find it interesting as well. The only thing that seems to bother me though is the Healer class that you mentioned, I would hope that you would change it later into something more appropriate, such as a White Mage, Priest or something along the line. Now if you ask me "Healer" sounds more like an attribute/skill rather then a class (job), right?
Names in this aren't really important. Once you decide what combination of archetypes you want to use, you can give it whatever name you choose to. That's part of the customization process.
nym wrote:I myself dont really like the idea of general "class" types, i would rather have the player able to fully customize their character by building up certain skills (which are available to every character, this is a very loose skill system). By building certain skills up you gain access to even more advanced skills in an area (but are still able to build other skill areas).

This idea is centralized about certain skill bases, generally without any "specialty classes" (like in most other RPG's) and allows a player to build the character _they_ want. But this system also allows people to create classic specialized classes also by allowing skills areas to be totally specialized on. For example, a player might want an all round class which has experience in all major skill bases, while another player might specialize in a certain area such as magic. Then instead of identify by strict areas, players are classified by their skill areas by an algorithm which will calculate the area most appropriate (but the player can change this classification by building other skills).
The current system allows for round classes that specialize in up to 3 archetypes, but it is not in any way limiting to the player. Even with only 12 archetypes, the combinations possible are some astronomical number (I think it's 71,449,290). The real problem with a truly classless system is that the players lose a sense of individuality, by creating a flexible system, players can know what abilities to look forward to having and also what to look for in teammates. This also sets up a viable way to distribute abilities to players as they become stronger. While the skill system already supports what you are proposing, we need something else to sort abilities by player type, while still giving them the freedom to experiment with multiple types. I'm sure there will be class-changing opportunities too.
Bjorn wrote:I see a huge array of interesting modifiers that could be gained from wearing enchanted items or armor, drinking special mixes, eating special cakes or casting a magical spell.

I don't really like the idea of archetypes at the moment. To me it seems too restrictive, as well as it's adding an unnecessary layer of "class" properties which should already be present with classes being defined by the skill levels.

So I think I'll want to stick with the guilds idea. A player simply has a set of many skills. The player can join a guild which helps specialize towards a certain goal. The guild will for example direct the player on quests or reward with items that suit members of the guild. Ultimately the level a player has at a guild would translate to a title, which is something other players would be able to read too.
While things like potions and cakes and spells etc. will exist, and will have some effects, it's good to have reliable special abilities and so on.
Archetypes aren't a restrictive system by any means (71,449,290 possible classes) they merely add definition to the character.

As far as guilds, it was my thought that the guilds would build a number of these classes and then assign them to new members. The guild would give players the quests by which he could obtain new abilities in his class and so forth. The idea is to be flexible and allow class builders to access the sets of abilities which will most benefit the player in his chosen area of expertise.

Really, only a few people want to do everything. Most people want to specialize in something or another. These classes will give players the opportunity to stretch themselves over a broad range of abilities, or over a narrow and powerful set.
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Post by Magick » 30 Apr 2005, 21:03

A good idea is to focus more on skills and that and have the person create his own title/class for his character. That way you wouldnt see the same old class's as every other game has but yet a very big range of classes depending on what the person wants. The person can updgrade whatever skills he wants and focus more on what he wants his class to be. Just a suggestion..
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Post by Bjørn » 30 Apr 2005, 22:01

Kyokai wrote:While things like potions and cakes and spells etc. will exist, and will have some effects, it's good to have reliable special abilities and so on.
Archetypes aren't a restrictive system by any means (71,449,290 possible classes) they merely add definition to the character.

...

Really, only a few people want to do everything. Most people want to specialize in something or another. These classes will give players the opportunity to stretch themselves over a broad range of abilities, or over a narrow and powerful set.
What I'm saying is that the same property of being able to either stretch over a broad range or focus on a narrow set of skills was already build into the basic skills system and I don't see the need to make it more complex. Not to mention it'd probably be good to first implement the system and get it tested a lot before thinking about further enhancements.
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Post by Kyokai » 30 Apr 2005, 23:59

I understand what you mean, Bjorn. I wanted to also put in a way to give players abilities that simple skills wouldn't grant though. The skill system we have now is really for determining stats, damage, as well as the success and failure of actions. If players want to do anything special, we could assign those special traits to them automatically when their skills reach a certain level, or we could give them to the player based on class. My approach was to do it by class (since there are too many skills to create several abilities for each without being really generic). Anyway, we could do a little of both. I think weapon techniques and such will be based off of weapon skill levels etc. However, for things that aren't directly connected with skills as they are listed, it might be best to do it by class. I created the archetypes to sort out these abilities without restricting players in the ways that clasic class systems have, however to still maintain a certain level of predictability, so that people can anticipate their character's growth.
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Post by Talaroc » 01 May 2005, 00:33

Names in this aren't really important. Once you decide what combination of archetypes you want to use, you can give it whatever name you choose to. That's part of the customization process.
I just wanted to point out that this is incorrect. Names, in this case, are important, and I don't think allowing each player to write in their own "class name" would be a good idea. We are wanting to encourage group/party play, right? For such, players will need an easy way of itentifying the general skills that another player has. We want them to be standardized, simply so that they can be reliable (I mean, come on, think about what all would probably wind up getting written in the "class name" space); this means either having prenamed archetype classes, or autogenerating class names based upon skill levels. Either way, there needs to be a broad range of names, and a character's skills and style of play need to be easily identifiable from that character's class name. As such, incorporating "archer" under "swashbuckler" would absolutely not be acceptable, nor would having "monk" be just a build of "brawler." If we use the archetype system, I would be all in favor of fully doubling the number of archetypes, coming up with simply as many as we can think of.

In any event, I like both system ideas, and would support either one.
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Post by nym » 01 May 2005, 00:44

I have already pointed this out in my post above, player classifications will be found by looking at the players existing skills. The player will not be able to make up their own class name. This classification system is only there to allow players to see how another player specializes. For example, someone who has many skills in the "life" category (category name made up for now, but i was thinking that skill categories would be different "elements", eg. life, death, fire) would be a support unit which heals named a "healer" (change "healer" to the appropriate class name ;)).

We can then build an array of class names which will be used when automatically choosing a players classification. But as you may have noted before, a player can change this specification by building other skill areas etc.

The only problem with such a skill system is that it must be balanced. But i am sure this will be no trouble for a FOSS project which gets tested thoroughly :)
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Post by Bjørn » 01 May 2005, 09:53

Instead of automatic title derivation from skills I'd really prefer given titles by for example guilds. Similar to studying at university grants you title like "Master of Science". Titles in the game could also be granted at other organisations than guilds, think of "Librarian" or "Chef Cook". Note that for each such title there would be requirements on the skills of the player, as well as a certain status gained at said organisation. When just starting at a restaurant, you'd first get a title like "Scullery Maid" or "Line Cook".

I much prefer this kind of titles above automatic derivation or chosen from a set of archetypes. I think it allows more control on when you are granted a certain title, more flexibility in titles and less complexity.
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Post by Kyokai » 01 May 2005, 17:46

Nym was talking to me earlier and proposed we just do something like this:

Each skill has certain abilities. These abilities are unlocked when that skill reaches a certain level. ie:

Sword Use Skill:
- Level 10 - Use "Power Cut" Technique
- Level 30 - Use "Helicopter Slash" Technique
- Level 50 - USe "Thousand Blades" Technique
etc.

Some abilities won't fit under skills very well though. Things like the abilities given to the "Leader" archetype will be hard to place. I think it might be a good idea to do weapon techniques and some resistance / hunting / magic abilities like this. I think we will let the others be decided by class systems.

As far as names go, we can also allow players to see the composition of a class (what archetypes make it up) rather than try to make an automatic name generator for all the possible class cases. This doesn't take away player freedom, but it also lets players know what they are inviting into their parties.
Talaroc wrote:Either way, there needs to be a broad range of names, and a character's skills and style of play need to be easily identifiable from that character's class name. As such, incorporating "archer" under "swashbuckler" would absolutely not be acceptable, nor would having "monk" be just a build of "brawler."
I understand your point, and we may need to change some names, but the fact remains that an archer uses the same important skills as a swashbuckler does. Precision, finesse, accuracy, etc. The only real difference is their choice of weapon. I'd like to just give the class creator the choice of what the specialty weapon will be and let them work it out.
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