Changes to the new mine

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Automatic James
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Changes to the new mine

Post by Automatic James » 29 Nov 2008, 21:35

Why were many of the spawns in the new mine changed including the awesome new snake spot? It was MUCH better before. Now the first rooms especially are just skull-infested crap, and who needs MORE spiders? Not even worth killing there.

I asked on IRC if there was any public discussion regarding these changes and...
<b_lindeijer> Most discussions take place here on IRC.
<b_lindeijer> I'd expect this to be discussed among the content managers.
<b_lindeijer> Namely Jaxad0127 and Fate.
<b_lindeijer> Also, many people reported the mines as they used to be as problematic and bot-encouraging.
So some people complain about bots (are there any bans in the courthouse section involving the new mine?), then the awesome new mine gets gimped without any public discussion between devs and the playerbase? If this understanding of the situation is correct, that is pretty lame.

I would like to see these changes reverted, but at LEAST it would be helpful to discuss such changes and the reasoning behind them publicly before making them. Unless we are playing a corporate MMO now where a product is produced and the consumer can STFU and enjoy it or leave...
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Rotonen
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Rotonen » 29 Nov 2008, 21:50

Well, you reacted to what happened and opened a public discussion about it.

You can hardly expect us to be always right. We need your feedback, but you could try to give it in a less provocative way (even though you are upset about changes).

Also, if we ran everything through the community, the rate at which changes happened would basically grind to a halt. The vast majority of changes don't seem to upset people enough to complain.

Finally, I'm glad about how the community has started to give us useful feedback lately.
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Automatic James
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Automatic James » 29 Nov 2008, 21:59

Yea I'm sorry if I was a bit... venomous. I've played several MMOs and I like this one because there is actually a community all helping to develop the game together.

Here is my issue: I woke up and my xp camp (snakes left of the entrance in the new mine) and new favorite farming camp (red slimes on the other side) are pretty much done for. Also the mushroom room appears to be full of spiders for some reason. Nobody has been banned for botting any of these locations as far as I know, and I have not personally seen anyone botting at any of these locations. There hasn't been a forum thread where people have complained that I can find. So... why?
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by z0ro » 29 Nov 2008, 22:03

Good post, James. The changes today suck really bad :P The rate spawn is bad, putting green monsters in different places is a bad idea. I think you guys should put it back what it was like yesterday and just deal with bots, ban them and what not. Botters can bot anywhere, like James said, I don't see any report of a botter botting in the new mine cave. Change them back, IMHO. :P
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by MasterKenobi » 29 Nov 2008, 22:05

I like the change. It means you have to move around to get exp. instead of just camp.

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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by z0ro » 29 Nov 2008, 22:12

MasterKenobi wrote:I like the change. It means you have to move around to get exp. instead of just camp.

MK
Also a valid point. I really didn't see it that way, I guess either is good.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by radiant » 29 Nov 2008, 22:17

It's worth noting that prior to the construction of the "outside mine" map, the concept of monsters that spawn only in certain squares of a map was completely unexplored in TMW, and that when those were added, they took care to add a respawn delay because even then they suspected that bad things would happen if a player were able to stand in one spot, autoattacking, with the knowledge that each time they scored a kill, the monster would immediately reappear within attack range.

Now that the mine opened its gates, the idea that you can find just about any enemy you like somewhere in there seemed to be the main objective to fulfill, and they temporarily forgot about the consequences of location-based mobs with 0 spawn delay, apart from Jack O, which may have had the delay just so there's time to concentrate on its drops before the next one comes along. The problem is magnified there not only by enemies that are worth decent XP (and/or are autoattackers, so that even if the mob range stretches a few squares past your hit range, the mob will come to you in due time anyway) but by the fact that it's so huge with multiple "bot spots", and therefore so hard to patrol. Clearly something needed to be done lest the snakes/mountain snakes/red slimes/black scorpions/evil mushrooms/mouboos/etc. got as out of control as the infamous "Botcave" in its heyday.

I would like to say that for that 4-snake spawn spot that was mentioned in the first post (left at the first fork from the main opening), a weak hitter like me (maximum hit 129) only takes out 2 more snakes in the time it takes the first kill to respawn, so as long as it remains a solo venture, that spot is still infinitely sustaining for me even after the mob cooldown.

About the only thing I don't like from the change is the fact that now we have grass snakes outside the main gate, which may turn off a lot of players to its presence (unless and until they come across the backdoor from the Hurnscald underground, and even then they may not realize where they ended up).
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Automatic James » 29 Nov 2008, 23:04

radiant wrote:It's worth noting that prior to the construction of the "outside mine" map, the concept of monsters that spawn only in certain squares of a map was completely unexplored in TMW, and that when those were added, they took care to add a respawn delay because even then they suspected that bad things would happen if a player were able to stand in one spot, autoattacking, with the knowledge that each time they scored a kill, the monster would immediately reappear within attack range.

Now that the mine opened its gates, the idea that you can find just about any enemy you like somewhere in there seemed to be the main objective to fulfill, and they temporarily forgot about the consequences of location-based mobs with 0 spawn delay, apart from Jack O, which may have had the delay just so there's time to concentrate on its drops before the next one comes along. The problem is magnified there not only by enemies that are worth decent XP (and/or are autoattackers, so that even if the mob range stretches a few squares past your hit range, the mob will come to you in due time anyway) but by the fact that it's so huge with multiple "bot spots", and therefore so hard to patrol. Clearly something needed to be done lest the snakes/mountain snakes/red slimes/black scorpions/evil mushrooms/mouboos/etc. got as out of control as the infamous "Botcave" in its heyday.
So you are attributing the changes (which have pretty much ruined the new mine as an efficient higher level xp area) to a need to combat bots that to date have not been reported (no bans or forum threads have related to bots in this area) as a problem in this area.

Ghost bots. Awesome.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by radiant » 29 Nov 2008, 23:33

Is it actually supposed to be an efficient (spoken with an implication of "low-risk" as well), high-level spot for gaining XP? Is there even supposed to be any place in the game where you can keep rolling through levels even into the 70s, 80s, and 90s in a short time and without putting yourself in any danger?

I have an experiment. How about we up the silkworm to 99,000 XP for the time being, and keep that spawn spot to the left of the mine entrance with its few-second respawn cycle. See how long it takes...

...Hold on, you mean we don't need to wait until someone actually abuses it (and is caught doing so) in order to change it back? It's self-evidently a dumb idea from the get-go? Aggressive, single-digit-sized, 0-second respawning mobs in a cramped area are a lot like that.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Automatic James » 30 Nov 2008, 00:15

Automatic James wrote:
radiant wrote:Is it actually supposed to be an efficient (spoken with an implication of "low-risk" as well), high-level spot for gaining XP? Is there even supposed to be any place in the game where you can keep rolling through levels even into the 70s, 80s, and 90s in a short time and without putting yourself in any danger?

I have an experiment. How about we up the silkworm to 99,000 XP for the time being, and keep that spawn spot to the left of the mine entrance with its few-second respawn cycle. See how long it takes...

...Hold on, you mean we don't need to wait until someone actually abuses it (and is caught doing so) in order to change it back? It's self-evidently a dumb idea from the get-go? Aggressive, single-digit-sized, 0-second respawning mobs in a cramped area are a lot like that.
It sounds like you are accusing me of either being a bot or someone who wants levels handed to them, or at least of suggesting that these things are ok. This is absolutely ridiculous.

Much of the mine still contains tons of aggressive mobs... there are just no good xp spots because any room that doesn't have billions of spiders has a painfully slow spawn rate. Also, there are still plenty of spots in the game that people can and do bot (there are also bots that move! wow!). A perfectly good area has been "nerfed" because of a PERCEIVED danger.

If you think it is unreasonable for a well equipped player with the right stats to semi-smoothly solo xp into the 90s, then one of us is playing the wrong game. This doesn't mean "in a short time," it means that high level solo options should only be marginally worse than group fighting options, not incredibly so. The new mine gave me a place to get GOOD xp without needing several other people to come with me (although with several people the xp was better), and with a town relatively close to sell drops to NPC. Now, anything other than a group of players in the snake pit is far inferior to the pit for someone my level (73). Even if I could get stats right for grass snakes, the respawn rate is so low it isn't worth it. Mountain Snakes in the desert area the only really decent solo option, and that requires a stat reset if you've been in the pit.

I really see no reason why anyone would level in the new mines with the current setup. There are great spots, but the respawn rates are just too low now, and the rooms with lots of monsters still have too many monsters to begin with including monsters that nobody wants to kill like spiders and skulls.

I guess it's better to make the area totally unappealing than to possibly have to deal with a few bots. Right? :wink:
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Rotonen » 30 Nov 2008, 00:48

The real nerve wrecker here seems to be the lack of proper endgame (high level) content.

Please separate that discussion out of this thread into a new one or use an existing thread on the subject. This thread is about the new mine.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Automatic James » 30 Nov 2008, 00:53

Rotonen wrote:The real nerve wrecker here seems to be the lack of proper endgame (high level) content.

Please separate that discussion out of this thread into a new one or use an existing thread on the subject. This thread is about the new mine.
My point is that the new mine gave me content I enjoyed, and now that is gone, apparently because of bots that didn't even exist.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Automatic James » 30 Nov 2008, 01:52

MasterKenobi wrote:I like the change. It means you have to move around to get exp. instead of just camp.

MK
I would like to add that this is a big problem. Just because YOU might like to run around looking for something to kill half the time when you could be getting steady xp does not me I want to do the same. If I am moving and not hitting monsters, I am getting less xp. Some of us like good xp camps.

There are plenty of existing places where you can run around and fight the monsters that are in the new mine, AND there are plenty of existing places to bot, not to mention moving bots. Why should we reduce leveling options and the appeal of the new mine for no good reason?
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by kr0n05931 » 30 Nov 2008, 02:55

The new changes suck, it's horrible XP/hour, and I never heard anyone complain about anything wrong with it. WTF is with all of the spiders too? They give horrible xp.

If you change a map just because of what bots have done, then the bots have won.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Crush » 30 Nov 2008, 03:20

kr0n05931 wrote:WTF is with all of the spiders too? They give horrible xp.
Then maybe the exp of the spiders should be increased.

Also note this thread about the topic of over- and underrated monsters: http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5439
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