Changes to the new mine

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fate
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by fate » 30 Nov 2008, 04:09

Hi,

for reference, the mines were not changed because of any botting concerns (though those factored in a little), but (a) to reduce the `zoo' factor of these dungeons and (b) to introduce enough spawn delay to allow players to actually clean up rooms (though this is still hard in some places).

I am glad to hear that this incidentally also solved some issues with `camping'-- after all, encouraging this kind of behaviour rewards `boring' game strategies, which would be a turn-off for most (potential) players.

Apologies for the grass snakes in the area near the mines entrance; I'll get rid of them for the next update.

-- fate
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Automatic James » 30 Nov 2008, 04:28

fate wrote:Hi,

for reference, the mines were not changed because of any botting concerns (though those factored in a little), but (a) to reduce the `zoo' factor of these dungeons and (b) to introduce enough spawn delay to allow players to actually clean up rooms (though this is still hard in some places).

I am glad to hear that this incidentally also solved some issues with `camping'-- after all, encouraging this kind of behaviour rewards `boring' game strategies, which would be a turn-off for most (potential) players.

Apologies for the grass snakes in the area near the mines entrance; I'll get rid of them for the next update.

-- fate
Fate: Glad to hear from you on this. It sounds like you had good intentions, but unfortunately what happened is that many of the same problem areas are still almost impossible to survive in, and several great experience/farming spots got ruined.

In regard to the first issue: LESS SPIDERS. Less mobs period in certain rooms. Repop rate isnt the problem so much as crazy amounts of monsters in some rooms. Spiders give crap xp because they drop keys. We don't need that many keys. Adjust skull level to fit its xp and to allow them to be killed in a reasonable amount of time, so that people can xp in rooms that have skulls. Lastly, clearing out enough space to stay alive is one thing, but totally clearing a room and having to wait for pops just ruins otherwise viable xp camps. If certain areas are designed for lower level players, then I understand but the skulls need removed from those areas.



In regard to the second: There are plenty of places to run around to groups of monsters and gain xp, how is giving people the option to stand in one spot going to drive away players? Some people, myself included, would rather sit in one spot and find it much less boring than running around searching for mobs. The "well good you shouldn't xp like that anyways" position that some people seem to be taking here is going to do nothing but drive away people who prefer this style of xp.

Finally (and this part is not directed at you Fate, and is OT for this reply but not the thread) this anti-bot line of reasoning has a very accusatory undertone, as if anyone who would prefer to stand in one place while xping is either a botter or wants some kind of free ride. I think we all know who was xping in the camps most affected by these changes, and who wasn't. If anyone wants to accuse anyone of anything, then do so, but I saw NO botting in the new mines so far, whereas several people have been banned for botting in previously existing areas since the new mine has been released.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by radiant » 30 Nov 2008, 04:54

The very phrase "XP camps", at least to me, sounds a lot like"Get into physical shape from sitting on the couch!" It's not a realistic goal for the outside world, nor should anyone be bothered to try forcing through a facsimile on this one. Combine that with the qualifier "viable" and you have quite the veritable oxymoron. I'm sure you can still run back and forth between the red slimes and snakes to good effect, with each stop taking care of the other's respawn time, but the point is that you're still doing something to gain the XP, rather than just hold two fingers on two buttons (plus maybe a cameo by a third finger if you see a worthwhile drop).

Spiders' XP seems right in line. It's one step down the power chain from a snake, with a small amount less XP to correspond. Surely you don't think snakes are undervalued (especially after taking an affinity for one of their spots), do you? (I don't even think XP should be altered up/down based on potential drops--snakes drop infantry helmets in any event, and spiders could do so as well in theory--but that's another discussion.)

With the seeming reinvention of skulls as "JackO's underlings", I could go with a reduction in their numbers: the pair in the opening room is good for setting the atmosphere, the skulls just outside the JackO ledge reinforce the underling role (perhaps we could gut the entire swarm there in favor of about 6-8 pairs of skulls?), and the skulls in the demon room work well as a "last line of defense," considering that that's the room you'd need to present their master's soul to get past, but I don't see what the skulls in any other room do for the place. I don't think they need to be leveled down/made easier; otherwise they wouldn't fit the niche role they've been redesigned for, but they do at least need XP upped to reflect that new role and how powerful it is.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by z0ro » 30 Nov 2008, 05:01

Here's what I think: You have your own strategy of leveling up, I have my own strategy of leveling up and your strategy and my strategy are different. You like to move around, attacking monster while moving around (you probably like using a bow/arrows) but I don't, I like using a sword and I don't like moving around and I often camp a lot, attacking monsters. Everyone has their own way of leveling up, their own strategy. It's not fair to "campers" who enjoy their own way of leveling up on the game even if they are not moving around, at least they are enjoying it. Just my 2cent.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by fate » 30 Nov 2008, 06:21

Automatic James,
Automatic James wrote:
In regard to the second: There are plenty of places to run around to groups of monsters and gain xp, how is giving people the option to stand in one spot going to drive away players?
Giving options always drives away people who don't like being at the long end of those options. If you add PvP to a game, you drive away people who don't enjoy being forced to participate. If you give out significant rewards to players who kill baby seals, you drive away players who like cute and cuddly things. And if you set up dungeons in such a way that the best way to advance in the primary statistic-- experience level-- is to stand around and do nothing but hold attack keys pressed, then you drive away people who like to roam and explore instead. It's a matter of game design, and I personally expect that the latter will be more rewarding.

More generally, in my personal game design philosophy, a game in which you can win (or score highly) by standing in a corner and doing the same thing over and over again is a failure. The eAthena tmw is already problematic in that vein because it encourages `grinding', which (in turn) is a common source of such repetition.

-- fate
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Rotonen » 30 Nov 2008, 07:01

Grinding is the main reason for botting. Hence making grinding easier is anti-botting?

Still, I'm with providing variable and rewarding gameplay instead of making powergrinding easy.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Automatic James » 30 Nov 2008, 07:09

Rotonen wrote:Grinding is the main reason for botting. Hence making grinding easier is anti-botting?

Still, I'm with providing variable and rewarding gameplay instead of making powergrinding easy.
What? If powergrinding is hard, it encourages people to get fed up and just use a bot, yet you don't want to make it easy. You're contradicting yourself.

Some people enjoy powerleveling. Some people prefer exploring. Most people would like to have the option to do either. I don't see the problem with this.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Automatic James » 30 Nov 2008, 07:23

fate wrote:Automatic James,
Automatic James wrote:
In regard to the second: There are plenty of places to run around to groups of monsters and gain xp, how is giving people the option to stand in one spot going to drive away players?
Giving options always drives away people who don't like being at the long end of those options. If you add PvP to a game, you drive away people who don't enjoy being forced to participate. If you give out significant rewards to players who kill baby seals, you drive away players who like cute and cuddly things. And if you set up dungeons in such a way that the best way to advance in the primary statistic-- experience level-- is to stand around and do nothing but hold attack keys pressed, then you drive away people who like to roam and explore instead. It's a matter of game design, and I personally expect that the latter will be more rewarding.

More generally, in my personal game design philosophy, a game in which you can win (or score highly) by standing in a corner and doing the same thing over and over again is a failure. The eAthena tmw is already problematic in that vein because it encourages `grinding', which (in turn) is a common source of such repetition.

-- fate
As things stand, we already have a grinding system (which you will always have as long as you have levels), but you have to get a few people together to grind in the pit. Then you repeat the same thing over and over for who knows how long. People made a Snake counter I mean cmon. All the new mine camp did was allow people to grind solo or in a small group while standing still instead of walking slowly in circles around a cave.

I appreciate your desire to reward roaming and exploring, but I take issue with your claim that providing good grinding options is mutually exclusive with this. Make more quests with high xp rewards, make incredibly rare monsters pop randomly in remote locations with valuable drops, etc.

In regard to the new mine specifically: Please make spiders drop something other than keys (miner gloves? etc.) and/or remove some of them from the mixed mob groups in the mine. This would make things much better. Also, please reduce the evasion of the skulls so that they can be killed in a reasonable amount of time, allowing players to safely xp in rooms with skulls. Finally, please restore the previous spawn rate to all monsters in the mine.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Jaxad0127 » 30 Nov 2008, 19:20

radiant wrote:With the seeming reinvention of skulls as "JackO's underlings", I could go with a reduction in their numbers: the pair in the opening room is good for setting the atmosphere, the skulls just outside the JackO ledge reinforce the underling role (perhaps we could gut the entire swarm there in favor of about 6-8 pairs of skulls?), and the skulls in the demon room work well as a "last line of defense," considering that that's the room you'd need to present their master's soul to get past, but I don't see what the skulls in any other room do for the place. I don't think they need to be leveled down/made easier; otherwise they wouldn't fit the niche role they've been redesigned for, but they do at least need XP upped to reflect that new role and how powerful it is.
I placed them as I did so they'd be a bigger presence. I never thought about "Jack O's underlings".
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Automatic James » 30 Nov 2008, 20:02

radiant:

It is highly likely that you have never even played another MMO. Every last one has xp camps in one form or another, viable ones even!

It is obvious that you think anyone who doesnt constantly wander around like you is a botter.

It is obvious that you want to make leveling up harder for new players, when you are already level 70.

This is not a workout, this is a game, pushing buttons on the couch is what you do to level up. Just because you are more interested in running around acting like an armchair dev (no pun intended), worrying about how other people are leveling, doesn't mean everyone should do the same.

Please stop posting in this thread you are not contributing anything valuable. I know it might be hard for your ego but you have no idea what you're talking about. Thanks.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by octalot » 01 Dec 2008, 04:36

With my main character (level 58) the new monster arrangement makes the mines much more fun (as in, not suddenly finding instant death rooms), thanks.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Crush » 01 Dec 2008, 10:26

Automatic James wrote:Please stop posting in this thread you are not contributing anything valuable. I know it might be hard for your ego but you have no idea what you're talking about. Thanks.
When you have no respect for the people you are discussing with then you are the one who shouldn't be posting here.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Automatic James » 01 Dec 2008, 18:17

Crush wrote:
Automatic James wrote:Please stop posting in this thread you are not contributing anything valuable. I know it might be hard for your ego but you have no idea what you're talking about. Thanks.
When you have no respect for the people you are discussing with then you are the one who shouldn't be posting here.
Respect is earned. radiant has done nothing but demonstrate that she deserves little to none.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by Vink » 03 Dec 2008, 01:08

For the record, even if that was not the purpose of the change, I'm very thankful for changes that make botting harder or less attractive, such as requiring that players move around a bit. I'm particularly thankful for such changes in big maps that are hard to check for bots, such as the new mine.

Also, though fighting solo and standing on the same spot may be more fun to some people, I think that this game should rather encourage co-operation and roleplay, to be the mmorpg it claims to be.
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Re: Changes to the new mine

Post by kr0n05931 » 03 Dec 2008, 02:48

Vink wrote:Also, though fighting solo and standing on the same spot may be more fun to some people, I think that this game should rather encourage co-operation and roleplay, to be the mmorpg it claims to be.
It isn't much of teamplay if the monsters in the cave give such little xp or so few monsters worth killing that no one bothers to group.
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