Range vs. Melee

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OnymA
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Re: Range vs. Melee

Post by OnymA » 19 Aug 2009, 16:57

*revives*

i get the feeling archers are third class players now,


my suggestion:
1) why not implement a new bow ... maybe the desert bow with following stats speed x1.5 of the forestbow and 80 strengh, at least it would be a good test (*)

or 2) reduce the price of arrows or remove them completly

or 3) add new arrows / -15 power but always hitters / or +10% crits-ones

i guess that would make feel archers as powerful as any others


*(for example)=angus the npc could change the setzer into the desert bow and the bow into setzer (+5 ironores + 50k)
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Galadriel
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Re: Range vs. Melee

Post by Galadriel » 22 Aug 2009, 01:56

desert bow

+120 Damage, 7 or 8 Range
* price in Nivalis: not available. 1 per customer like Setzer

sharpened steel arrows

+75 damage, 10 GPs each

:)
"Spoken like a tru lover of the beast" --zyperz, one time member of Corum's party. A little projection there, zyperz?

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Ettouffe
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Re: Range vs. Melee

Post by Ettouffe » 22 Aug 2009, 15:41

Is it possible to balance out the attacks. I personally think that if you have a 99 Dex you should be able to hit more than not regardless of what weapon you use. Maybe base damage off of Strength. Just a thought.

Or perhaps you could have a couple of quests to have "next level" weapons which allow the user to use the weapon which is superior in hitting or damage only if they meet certain statistical requirements. For example you can use a crossbow that allows you to have a bonus to hitting if you have a minimum of a 75 Dex. Or you can use a rapier (type of sword) if you have a dex of 75, that has a bonus to hitting.

thanks for your time and consideration.
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Re: Range vs. Melee

Post by Ettouffe » 23 Aug 2009, 14:49

Before the great explosion which rid the land of magic, there was a man named Vigo. He was a master of archery. He won many archery contests and was arguably the best archer through the land. Vigo had decided to help other archers and began to take on other students. Their training included use of the bow and arrow. One day he decided to share some of his bow making expertise with a younger lad named Alan. He taught him how to make bows of all kinds. In time the lad was able to create exceptional bows without the supervision of Vigo. This meant that Vigo was free to explore once again. This brought much joy to Vigo's heart as he had spent many years teaching Alan how to make bows, not including the number of years he had taken in students. Vigo had journeyed to may parts of the globe. During his travels a terrible fate had befallen poor Vigo. One day while out hunting, Vigo was attacked by barbarians. He had lost one arm in the battle and the other was badly injured. He had been rescued by a fellow archer who happened to come along shortly after the attack. Jannel took Vigo back to her home. There she tended to his wounds, fed, and cared for him. As time passed Vigo regained his health, but the loss of his arm left him in a deep depression. His love of archery had been taken from him. Jannel had tried her best to comfort him, but is was in vain. Until one day when Jannel took Vigo to watch an assault on a fortress near the border of Jannel's homeland. There Vigo was delighted to see a strange device that would take an arrow that was as long as a full grown man is tall and fire it into the air. The contraption inspired Vigo to continue on. Jannel and Vigo's love bloomed. After many months of tinkering Jannel and Vigo had created a bow like weapon that allowed the injured to use a bow one handed. At first it was crude and not very accurate. However Vigo's persistence paid off. After a year or so it is rumored that the device called a "crossbow" was invented. It had the accuracy of a bow and the damage was almost always constant. This weapon would allow those without physical strength, or those who had lost an arm to noch an arrow (bolt) and through the use of a mechanical device draw back the bowstring and allow the archer to fire. Vigo only had one such weapon. However he had a younger brother whom he loved dearly named Angus. He sent the weapon to his brother who is rumored to still be alive and working north of Hurnscald as a blacksmith / tinkerer. Along the way to Vigo's brother the caravan that carried the package was ambushed. The weapon was taken or destroyed and nobody has seen it since. A strange traveler has shown up in Thulmishar with some strange drawings and handwriting that may be Vigo's letter and plans for a crossbow.

for a quest players would need to get:

1 wedding ring
1 forest bow
1 raw log
4 snake skins
4 iron ore
1 sharp knife

they would have to discover a stranger and ask about a letter and drawings.
talk to the guy in the archery shop about Vigo and his little brother
approach Vigo's little brother and show him the letter with the drawings
ask Vigo's brother to make a crossbow for them.
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feline monstrosity
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Re: Range vs. Melee

Post by feline monstrosity » 23 Aug 2009, 14:59

Please separate your writing into paragraphs so people can read it.
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Re: Range vs. Melee

Post by Galadriel » 23 Aug 2009, 19:24

to satisfy Feline Monstrosity and by way of saying thanks to ettouffe for a beautiful story, i present my edited version (small changes here and there, ett. i'll restore anything i removed/edited than you deem should be restored).

Revised Vigo Story (2nd Revision)

Before the great explosion that rid the land of magic, there was a man named Vigo. He was a master archer. He won many archery contests being arguably the best archer throughout the land. Vigo's mastery of the bow led him to train less experienced archers on its proper use.

One day Vigo invited his star student to learn the craft of making bows. First he taught the lad to make the simple bow (used mostly by beginners in archery schools). With that part of his training done, Vigo taught his student to make the Short Bow. Being very impressed with the lad's skills and ability to understand the depths of the bow's design, Vigo worked with young Alan until, with combined skills, they perfected a new weapon: The Forest Bow.

Convinced Alan could continue without Vigo's supervision, Vigo felt free once again to explore uncharted areas--distant lands he had heard of from the young warriors like Kfahr. Gathering his belongings and bidding farewell to friends and family, Vigo embarked on a journey to distant lands.

During his travels a terrible fate befell poor Vigo. One day while hunting for food, Vigo was attacked by barbarians. He lost his left arm in the battle while his right was badly injured. During the battle he was rescued by Jannel, a fellow archer who happened to come along shortly after the attack. Jannel took Vigo back to her home. There she tended to his wounds, fed and cared for him.

As time passed Vigo regained his health, but the loss of his arm left him in a deep depression. His love of archery was taken from him. Jannel tried her best to comfort him, but this was in vain. Vigo sank deeper into depression until one day when Jannel took him to the border of her homeland. There Vigo watched an assault on a fortress. He was amazed to see a strange device in use that would take an arrow the length of a full grown man and fire it into the air. The contraption inspired Vigo's imagination. In his mind he saw the beginnings of a design that would revolutionize archery. Vigo's heart was refreshed. There Vigo asked Jannel for her hand in marriage. With tears in her eyes, she accepted.

After many months of tinkering Jannel and Vigo created a bow-like weapon that allowed the injured to use it in a one-handed fashion. At first it was crude and inaccurate. However Vigo's persistence paid off. After a year or so it was rumored that the device (called a "crossbow") was invented. It had the accuracy of a bow with an almost constant damage rate. The weapon would allow those without physical strength, or those who had lost an arm, to notch an arrow (bolt). And through the use of a mechanical device it would pull the bowstring back and allow the archer to fire.

Vigo had only one such weapon. However he had an older brother named Angus whom he loved dearly. Vigo called for a messenger who agreed to take the the weapon to his brother, for he heard that Angus may still be alive and working as a blacksmith / tinkerer in the region north of Hurnscald. Sadly, the caravan bearing the package was ambushed, leaving no survivors. No trace of the weapon was found among the remains, being either destroyed or taken.

After several years an unknown traveler has shown up in Tulimshar. "Vigo never heard back from Angus. We figured either the return journey was too difficult, or the bow never made it. He gave me these documents, a letter and plans for a new weapon he called the Cross Bow. The design's a bit unclear here and there. But I think Angus knows his brother's writing style and can fill in the missing bits."

"Where's Vigo? Why didn't he come himself?"

A shadow passes over the stranger's face. "Vigo... Vigo and Jannel, his wife, were ambushed. They slew more of the assailants than you'd imagine... under the circumstances. But..." he looks down, "they both fell. We found their bodies and buried them according to our customs."

He slides the documents to you.

"It was his desire that these plans finally come to Tulimshar. But you'll need supplies and Angus' craftsmanship. If you don't already have a Forest Bow, talk to Alan. I met with him earlier today and he says he can supply anyone who's willing to provide him with the necessary wood. But to build the weapon laid out in this sketch, you will need:

1 wedding ring
1 forest bow
5 raw logs
4 snake skins
4 iron ore
1 sharp knife"

Players must:

* discover a stranger and ask about a letter and drawings;
* talk to the Alan in the archery shop about Vigo and his older brother Angus;
* locate Angus and show him the letter with the drawings;
* ask Vigo's brother to make a crossbow for them.
Last edited by Galadriel on 28 Aug 2009, 05:04, edited 2 times in total.
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Ceros
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Re: Range vs. Melee

Post by Ceros » 24 Aug 2009, 14:01

Great revision, Galadriel. Would the purpose of this be to allow archers to use a shield while wielding a crossbow? (One handed firing and all..)

I also believe archers are underpowered. I'm currently playing a level 61 archer. I messed around with melee and inefficient stat sets until Galadriel kindly pointed out the benefits of maxing DEX. I have reset my stats and haven't looked back. I can solo Mountain Snakes, take on the second level of the northern mines (plains above the skulls) but I cannot beat skulls. Oh, I can, but only in a huge group.

Inveritably, some warriors will set up in a stack and start hitting the skulls. I will come along and begin firing. Even with MAXED OUT Dex, I still miss probably over 1/4th of my shots. I watch as my melee counterparts land hits, and land them more often (yea faster swinging Setzer FTW). When I DO pull off a hit, I almost immediately draw aggro and then have a skull chasing me (unless there is a mage there doing 500-700 damage a pop with no miss chance to steal it back). Now, I have mastered the art of attack and pull back, but with skulls who can hit from several squares away, this proves to be an impossible proposition. Now, I am the DEX/VIT breed of archer, but even then it only takes two unlucky hits sometimes to end me. Dropping DEX drops my miss rate even lower (below 1 out of 4, best case). I know some of you will say "Drop Dex and Increase Agi/Luk". Well, this drops the to hit rate even lower and results in more wasted arrows.

IMO, a new bow needs to come with an increase in the to hit rate and speed of fire. Everything else is fine as it stands by me.
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Galadriel
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Re: Range vs. Melee

Post by Galadriel » 24 Aug 2009, 15:19

forgive the "spamming", but yes. i believe it was ettouffe's intention to devise a bow that allows for a shield to be used. i am encouraging players that use the bow to considering adding to this thread. thanks, ceros, for your addition.

:)
Last edited by Galadriel on 02 Oct 2009, 08:16, edited 1 time in total.
"Spoken like a tru lover of the beast" --zyperz, one time member of Corum's party. A little projection there, zyperz?

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Re: Range vs. Melee

Post by Galadriel » 28 Aug 2009, 19:10

if the Desert Bow would be preferred, i'd happily modify the story to accommodate this lovely bow.
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sugarcorgit
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Re: Range vs. Melee

Post by sugarcorgit » 29 Aug 2009, 01:18

One thing is for sure the lightening spell needs looking into its very unbalanced.
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Re: Range vs. Melee

Post by Freeyorp101 » 29 Aug 2009, 01:30

The lightning and flare dart spells are very accurate. This isn't a bad thing on its own IMO, but all current high level monsters favor dodge as their main characteristic (which worked fine before magic was released, but now there is another aspect of gameplay that monsters must accommodate for), and mages are perfect counters for these types of monsters.

Since there seem to be a few monsters that are nearly ready to go, what about making them have stats other than dodge as their main focus, so that warriors or archers have something that they can be a perfect counter for?

Another factor that needs to be taken into account is that such spells are very expensive... adding similarly expensive consumables that warriors and archers can use to enhance their playing style (as well as a basic no-component attack spell with _very_ random damage for mages to fall back on) could help there.


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Re: Range vs. Melee

Post by Ettouffe » 29 Aug 2009, 02:25

Actually it was my intention to introduce a more accurate weapon, rather than a one handed bow, but either way is fine for me

-Ettouffe-
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Re: Range vs. Melee

Post by Hrvoje » 29 Aug 2009, 07:50

+1 for Desert bow.
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Re: Range vs. Melee

Post by Acegi » 27 Sep 2009, 07:18

The whole point of archery is to keep the target far from the archer.

Pinching the idea from Warcraft, why not a frost (enchanted) bow? I'm not sure where the desert bow idea came from but I think a bow that fires frost arrows that use up mana would be brilliant. The effect being it stops (or slows) monsters from approaching you. It's a similar idea to reversing the situation of having to move away when the monster gets closer. A proper reverse situation would be a bow so strong it pushes the monster away (back a tile) but this is a bit unlikely...

If you want to improve archery with power/damage another idea would be fire arrows, there's a chance it will burn the target for x amount of time doing high damage. You may want some igniting item (matches maybe) or you could again re-use mana as ammo as well as arrows.

Saying this actually firegoblins should have a chance at doing burn damage too then. Eg, armor will get heated and burn (do more damage to warriors), or silk/cotten clothes will become inflamed and do even more damage to players (but this is a little off topic now).
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Re: Range vs. Melee

Post by chaslinux » 09 Oct 2009, 20:21

5t3v3 wrote:Well first of all, all of these benefits are only for tanked-warriors not just any warrior. I know many archers who are tanked (high vitality).
Also, even if tank up an archer, they still have less stats to worry about as opposed to warriors, because warriors will also have to add points to strength. In fact balancing warriors has become increasingly difficult, as now they seem to need 5 out of 6 stats.
Of course, I do grant that from an economical point of view, warriors are better. But Archers are still easier to level than warriors
Exactly! I see archers that are lower level doing more damage than my warrior simply because they have less stats to balance, and they seem to have a great speed advantage... warriors have to run up to the monster, and in that time archers often already have shot the monster a few times. At level 68 I should be able to beat a level 50 archer to a monster easily... but it doesn't always happen because of the imbalance in required stats. Archers have it pretty easy in some ways... yes you have to accumulate arrows or food, but this can be obtained by killing green slimes. Yes, you might have to put a bit in something other than Dex, to balance the archer out enough to take a bit of damage, but with a knife green slimes are not that difficult to kill.
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