English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

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Automatic James
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by Automatic James » 03 Jan 2009, 18:36

I don't need numbers. I don't care if you want to rationalize mistakes. I quit this game already. It is clear to anyone not pretending to be naive about it that a certain group/demographic of players is constantly pandered to.

And that last bit? Are you serious? You can break the rules until you are caught? NO sh!t sherlock... People can bot until they are caught also, does that mean they aren't banned for botting but because someone complained?

5 people here you come!
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Arilious
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by Arilious » 03 Jan 2009, 20:20

I don't disagree with discussion on this issue, however you realise that by consistently posting your views when they have clearly been heard and either discussed or ignored, you only hurt your cause. You turn discussion into nagging and annoyance, and where you think you may be making ground, you are really only closing those in charge to your ideas, hurting your cause by turning it from suggestion into bitching. The more you continue to do so, the farther you will be from change. Just an observation.
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by Habari » 04 Jan 2009, 01:15

I will make my opinion clear enough as some people still do not understand why rule #5 is a bad rule.

1. This is a free game (free as in freedom not as in free beer) , consequently most players
wish to be free also.

This includes the freedom to speak whichever language they like ( regardless of what their mother tongue is)

2.I speak perfect water-clear English , i have nothing against English language , i am just in favor of freedom of speach.

3.I agree with English being the official language , because of it being an international language , this is people should learn English before playing the game , should post in english when writing in forums , speak english with gm's and dev's and have enough knowledge of langiuage in order to contribute to TMW. HOWEVER this should not apply to in-game conversations ,
as it is not polite , anyway , to listen to private conversations , and there is no need of understanding them.

4. Rule 5# shoulnt exist with the excuse of preventing crime , that is not an ethical way to prevent it ( wathc minority report)
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by kr0n05931 » 04 Jan 2009, 01:38

If this is a free game then why stop at language? Let's include bittorrent, an e-mail client, web browser, and an entire operating system in the game! That way no one feels restricted! While we're at it, let's remove the underwear from the player sprites!

Now do you see the flaw in your arguments?
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by Elrrohir » 04 Jan 2009, 02:23

kr0n05931 wrote:If this is a free game then why stop at language? Let's include bittorrent, an e-mail client, web browser, and an entire operating system in the game! That way no one feels restricted! While we're at it, let's remove the underwear from the player sprites!

Now do you see the flaw in your arguments?
Looks like you have been enlightened! please, help us to get out of the shadows and show us the light!

thats called being cynical...
Crush wrote:
EJlol wrote:IMO you may break this rule, unless people ask you to stop speaking your language.
And how are they supposed to ask you to stop talking when you don't understand them?
i agree with the suggestion and agree also with Crush. thats the whole point: you can choose to let us play and be flexible about this and we all have a good time or you can choose to make it easier for GMs and Mods and enforce this rule like if it came directly from God.

Thats the whole thing. if this is gonna make more difficult for the GM's and mods to do their jobs, the part of this community that speak some other language will help.

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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by Fern » 04 Jan 2009, 02:37

I'm not a native English speaker.. but I believe that the rule is valid enough for an English server owned by English speakers in their free time who want to avoid a Babel chaos harder to moderate.

In my opinion, if there is so much people complaining about this issue, then a "The Mana World - Babel" international server could be created by some of them for this purpose explicitly (be explicit to avoid the "if it gets bigger" problem that Arilious pointed out). I believe that it could be a good thing to try out and see how moderation is lacking or how hard to moderate it is, you should not care so much about the loosing characters/equipment, since they will be probably reseted anyway with the 0.1 server. And well.. after all I believe this game is not about leveling, but about interacting with people and having fun in a different universe (maybe rates could be set higher if this was an issue).
Last edited by Fern on 04 Jan 2009, 02:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by kr0n05931 » 04 Jan 2009, 02:43

Elrrohir wrote: Thats the whole thing. if this is gonna make more difficult for the GM's and mods to do their jobs, the part of this community that speak some other language will help.

Elrrohir
This can't be done, as everyone can't be trusted. There may be a clan who hates this one person because he left, and because of this, they talk to him in Hurnscald in Spanish while in the presence of a GM. Well then they can just start telling the GM that he is cussing them out and abusing him in Spanish. Say no one else is around, the GM would only have their word to take for it. See the problem now? Utopian societies such as the one where everyone tells the truth that you are implying do not exist, especially as far as humanity is concerned. On top of that, TMW doesn't have a cut/paste function, or accented characters, so people are forced to use the basic Latin alphabet and then words get lost in translation.

For example, pretend I said this to a player in The Mana World:
¿Cuanto años tienes?
This means "How old are you?" ("How many years do you have?", directly) in Spanish.

Well in The Mana World it would come out like this due to no accents:
¿Cuantos anos tienes?
This does not mean the same as the above and would come out like this in a translator:
How many anuses do you have?
Thus, the GM flags it as abuse and the poor player gets banned for no reason, since the GM has to rely on Google or Babelfish for translation.

Think of it like this, the official server is owned by a private party and they may do what they wish on it. Unless you happened to pay for the expenses of the server, I think it is none of your concern. It is their server and you must play by their rules. This is a game licensed under the GNU General Public License, this means that you can open up your own server.

If I came to your house, I would abide by your rules. The same idea applies here.
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Jaxad0127
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by Jaxad0127 » 04 Jan 2009, 02:58

kr0n05931 wrote:On top of that, TMW doesn't have a cut/paste function, or accented characters, so people are forced to use the basic Latin alphabet and then words get lost in translation.
There are client mods and some plans for chat logging. Also, we do have many accented characters. The next client will be fully TTF, so we can support many more easily.
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Fern
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by Fern » 04 Jan 2009, 03:16

kr0n05931 wrote: There may be a clan who hates this one person because he left, and because of this, they talk to him in Hurnscald in Spanish while in the presence of a GM. Well then they can just start telling the GM that he is cussing them out and abusing him in Spanish.
Hmm.. I've been thinking.. in many chatrooms, messengers, etc there are no moderators. What about relying on the ignore/disregard features there are already?

Maybe an unmoderated server would not be such a bad idea... it would keep the freedom of speech, will easen the life of GMs and will make the ignore/disregard feature much more useful. Maybe let the GMs act only in clear and extremely annoying situations (and for this kind of explicit situations language should not be a big issue for noticing the abuse... I think that saying "ano" is not a big issue, given the ignore features).

EDIT: Moreover... the hate of a clan towards one person.. or towards another clan.. could be interpreted as part of the roleplaying. Tolkien tales wouldnt have been as much fun if dwarfes and elves didn't had some love-hate relationship... or if orcs didn't hated elves.

I'm not saying that this would be a abstolutely better way of managing things and suitable for the official server.. but I think that it could be a nice idea if someone want to make an "all-freedom" server.
Last edited by Fern on 04 Jan 2009, 03:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by sj16936724 » 04 Jan 2009, 03:30

What would the technical limitations of the following proposal be?
GM executes a command on a user that asks him what language he speaks: essentially just an npc dialog with options such as 'I speak English', 'Je parle français', etc, and upon answering, the GM could send one of several available messages, and the user could respond with an answer from a list in their own language. Because the strings would be previously prepared, the translations would be immediately visible by the GM/Admin.

While English is widely known, we should try to reasonably accommodate speakers of other languages.

The prepared messages GM function could probably make use of NPC scripts with only minor server modification (receiving input, and forwarding the response to the other player), and I'm sure something much more elaborate could be implemented in the future in TMWServ.

I do not oppose the English speaking rule, as I believe it keeps the players satisfied knowing that they are guaranteed to be able to communicate with everybody, but not everybody knows English.
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by bigglesworth » 04 Jan 2009, 11:32

Here is an idea.

Currently, in 0.0.x, when a player right-clicks on another player, we can trade/befriend/ignore/etc. that other player. During character creation, may we specify our primary language or country of origin? Allow that information to be within the right-click popup.

That way, a GM or any player that knows that language can know how to interact with that individual. A discriminating GM can then go to his or her reference material and communicate with any offensive individual in a language that is understood.

BTW, I don't care what language anyone speaks in public chat. But, if you're going to curse to me, please do it in English, otherwise you're wasting your energy and both our bandwidth. :)
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by yasha » 04 Jan 2009, 16:58

kr0n05931 wrote:While we're at it, let's remove the underwear from the player sprites!
You've said something good! I like this way of thinking! There is good in everything, don't you think? :D :D

I think there is no point of having this "talk" any longer. We'll have to accept rule for now, when new server comes we'll be free again. Hold on a little and then have fun for a long time! We all agreed this rule has positive and negative "effects", so it's best if it stays like this. It's not that I like this rule, but I have to accept that it won't be changed. There's noting else I (or we) can do now anyway.

And i agree with bigglesworth about his idea. Make something like "player's card" that others can see. In that card we could write our real name, country, years etc., but only if we wanted to.
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by Habari » 04 Jan 2009, 20:45

kr0n05931 wrote:If this is a free game then why stop at language? Let's include bittorrent, an e-mail client, web browser, and an entire operating system in the game! That way no one feels restricted! While we're at it, let's remove the underwear from the player sprites!
I DO agree with taking the underwear to be honest , i do not need fascist people to impose me their morality , and the rest of your argument , is absolutely unrelated to what i said
kr0n05931 wrote: Now do you see the flaw in your arguments?
NO
kr0n05931 wrote: For example, pretend I said this to a player in The Mana World:
¿Cuanto años tienes?
This means "How old are you?" ("How many years do you have?", directly) in Spanish.
Well in The Mana World it would come out like this due to no accents:
¿Cuantos anos tienes?
This does not mean the same as the above and would come out like this in a translator:
How many anuses do you have?
Thus, the GM flags it as abuse and the poor player gets banned for no reason, since the GM has to rely on Google or Babelfish for translation.
you have obviously been thinking hard all night , i cant think of another example of where this would happen , this is really just a funny exception to the rule,
besides someone has to report you before you get banned , and i dont think anyone will be annoyed by a misunderstanding
Think of it like this, the official server is owned by a private party and they may do what they wish on it. Unless you happened to pay for the expenses of the server, I think it is none of your concern. It is their server and you must play by their rules. This is a game licensed under the GNU General Public License, this means that you can open up your own server.
If I came to your house, I would abide by your rules. The same idea applies here.
True enough , and i have obeyed rule 5 ALWAYS and i will continue doing it , until it gets changed , i am just having a polite and reasonable chat about why i think it is a bad rule , i am not cryin about it, do you have anything to object to dialog ???
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by Automatic James » 04 Jan 2009, 21:31

Habari wrote: i am just having a polite and reasonable chat about why i think it is a bad rule , i am not cryin about it, do you have anything to object to dialog ???
TMW devs and the players who think they are devs (like Arilious) claim they are totally open to dialogue, then they repeat "nuh uh!" when presented with huge problems in the game until you look like a total jerk for "turning it from suggestion into bitching."

Then they try to act completely naive about the whole thing and talk about how they were open to dialogue and YOU acted immaturely.

Although it is clear to most of the people playing/reading forums what has happened, the same clique remains in control, and future complaints generate the same response. Just watch how they reply to this post...

This is why I quit playing TMW, and why others will continue to do so until only a few jerks from HMC are left, UNLESS the project takes a major look at itself and shakes off this whole rule-by-clique nonsense.
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Re: English speaking rule and why is this a problem.

Post by yasha » 04 Jan 2009, 22:42

Automatic James wrote:
Habari wrote: i am just having a polite and reasonable chat about why i think it is a bad rule , i am not cryin about it, do you have anything to object to dialog ???
TMW devs and the players who think they are devs (like Arilious) claim they are totally open to dialogue, then they repeat "nuh uh!" when presented with huge problems in the game until you look like a total jerk for "turning it from suggestion into bitching."

Then they try to act completely naive about the whole thing and talk about how they were open to dialogue and YOU acted immaturely.

Although it is clear to most of the people playing/reading forums what has happened, the same clique remains in control, and future complaints generate the same response. Just watch how they reply to this post...

This is why I quit playing TMW, and why others will continue to do so until only a few jerks from HMC are left, UNLESS the project takes a major look at itself and shakes off this whole rule-by-clique nonsense.
I've noticed that too, but I won't change anything by leaving. If ALL people would leave at same time we could do that, but one-by-one leaving won't help change community.
I've noticed too that 2-3 devs/GMs/or something like that come to one thread with 2-3 arguments against 10 or more "normal" players with 20 arguments. That 2-3 always win. We won't change anything if each of us come as individual, and sometimes we fight each other. We must work as a team to achieve victory!

And one another thing: we can't change TMW as we like in 2 seconds. Thought everyone would like that... We can only do it little by little. If we want change we must work as team and turn things slowly on our side.....

Right now i'm tired and cant write or think anymore...... this end suxs cus i dont see keyboard ... i need 30 sec to hit one letter.... and 5 tries.... :roll: :roll: :roll:
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