The Mana World Forums

List of Botters

Master Kenobi wrote:Evidently Wombat, you don't get the point.

I will not take the time to explain it too you, as I don't have any interest in "holding your hand" and drawing it out for you. I will also not get drawn in to one of you pointless debates that has little to do with justice and more to do with feeding your own ego and your inflated sense of importance.

I believe I have said all that is needed to say on this matter.

The two players in question have not been found guilty of anything at this point in time.

MK

LOCKED

It must be me that must hold your hand Master Kenobi. You are allowing hearsay to be given weight in the Court House, where it does not belong. I've quoted the "Purpose of this Forum" multiple times on the thread and you chose to treat my comments as irrelevant, when they are very relevant. The rules serve a purpose and you are not following them. A "List of Botters" does not belong in the Court House. Actual evidence of rule abuse does and those posting hearsay should be less lazy and attempt to expose more information (Screenshot, coordinates, times, etc.) in order to make it known they aren't attempting to defame some foe of theirs and they have perceived a real problem, whether that problem is substantiated or not by the GMs after evidence is given.

Platyna wrote:This forum is made to deal with players abusing the game. And as in real court house:
- you should submit a case and provide an evidence that abuse occured,
- there is quite clear and strict law - the game rules, and only issues in scope of these rules should be handled here,
- there are judges, who are the only ones who can judge the particular case, only rules and evidence is taken into consideration, there are no possibility to vote upon a ban or bash certain persons.
- if the room (a thread), where the case is reviewed will be undertaken by people posting irrelevant input, it will be emptied by The Almighty Janitor,
- persons who were found guilty and punished can post appelations here, these appelations are to be handled just by a moderator and a person who filled relevant report.

Lack of knowledge about the rules is not an excuse. If you are not sure if you are following the rules you can ask on Player Talk Section.

This forum is made for a sole purpose of fast, efficient, and transparent way to deal with abuse and to protect honest players.

This thread is open for translations to other languages. Do not post anything else in here (you can start a discussion thread on Player Thread about any content found here).

Regards.

The bold text should explain the issue clearly, but I'm willing to walk you through the rules Master Kenobi if you don't understand them.

Dallas wrote:No map, time or anything. Most of them bot at different times, different maps, monsters, etc. And this list really means nothing unless they are caught in the act. Just want GM's to know who to look out for. I'm pretty sure some people on this list will have been mentioned before to you. I will update it often.

Puddles
NineTails

This is the primary issue of contention and why I requested the thread be moved or locked. It is now locked. This player clearly exposed they had "No map, time or anything". If the list "means nothing", then it does not belong in the Court House.

So is your point that his post should have been in Suggestions?

Player talk

Let's see, where to begin?.................. hmmm

Commence hand holding

Q.Who decides what gets "weight" in the court house? A. The GM's (not Wombat)
If someone comes too me in game and says "so and so" is botting. I will go check it out. In this case, no GM was available so Dallas reported to the court house..... Same result, I will go check it out. I did, and found no evidence of botting at this time.
Q.Why is "quoting" the Purpose of the Forum relevant? A. It's not unless I am not following the rules.
Q.At what point did I "not follow the rules"? A. At no point did I break any rule.
Q.Did I ever say a "list of botters" belongs in the court house? A. No
I ignored the fact that Dallas said he would update the list. Why, you may ask? Because as a GM I know that once I investigate I will lock the topic and updating this list will be impossible.
Q.What so called "evidence" is allowed in the court house. A. Screen shots, locations, times, etc.
Q.Does any of this "evidence" prove anything? A. No, although additional information(evidence) is welcomed and encouraged, it is unnecessary.

The bold text should explain the issue clearly, but I'm willing to walk you through the rules Master Kenobi if you don't understand them.

No, I think I'll walk YOU through the rules:
- you should submit a case and provide an evidence that abuse occured
Dallas submitted a case and I've already explained that evidence is not a necessity, because the GM must witness the botting before action can be taken.
- there is quite clear and strict law - the game rules, and only issues in scope of these rules should be handled here
the game rules state that botting is not allowed, that's what was reported
- there are judges, who are the only ones who can judge the particular case, only rules and evidence is taken into consideration, there are no possibility to vote upon a ban or bash certain persons.
at no point was anything but evidence taken into consideration and any "bashing" of those in question would be deleted
- if the room (a thread), where the case is reviewed will be undertaken by people posting irrelevant input, it will be emptied by The Almighty Janitor
funny how you conveniently skipped over this rule
- persons who were found guilty and punished can post appelations here, these appelations are to be handled just by a moderator and a person who filled relevant report.
No one was found guilty
This forum is made for a sole purpose of fast, efficient, and transparent way to deal with abuse and to protect honest players
That is exactly what happened here.

Whats next Mr. Watchman of the Watchers?

MK

I am neither a watchman of the watchers nor am I dictating, I am a concerned player willing to make a point of argument that rules are not being followed.

Master Kenobi wrote:Q.Who decides what gets "weight" in the court house? A. The GM's (not Wombat)

And the GMs also have a code to follow, which is the "purpose of this forum" and the rules of the game. They do not get to ride roughshod nor encourage defamation of other players when there is little to no evidence to back such claims.

Master Kenobi wrote:Q.Why is "quoting" the Purpose of the Forum relevant? A. It's not unless I am not following the rules.

It is relevant because "Dallas" was making unsubstantial claims against other players and was planning more. "Lists" of player "Dallas" thinks are botters, but with no evidence of time/location is an unsubstantial claim. The very first post was "irrelevant" to the forum, as was the title of the topic, which wanted to grow a list of people "Dallas" and others thought were botting.

Master Kenobi wrote:Q.At what point did I "not follow the rules"? A. At no point did I break any rule.

You ignored the rules of the forum, chose to delete a concerned player's comments about the forum rules not being followed and kept "Dallas"'s posts up without a challenge for them to attempt to provide better information in the future, which could've been done. I'd say it would of been responsible to of done so, but you did not "break" any rule.

Master Kenobi wrote:Q.Did I ever say a "list of botters" belongs in the court house? A. No
I ignored the fact that Dallas said he would update the list. Why, you may ask? Because as a GM I know that once I investigate I will lock the topic and updating this list will be impossible.

The Court House is to create transparency for the player's benefit and are not there for you to ride roughshod on players. Once this "list" was challenged, you should've made your intentions apparent for the sake of transparency.

Master Kenobi wrote:Q.What so called "evidence" is allowed in the court house. A. Screen shots, locations, times, etc.

Agreed.

Master Kenobi wrote:Q.Does any of this "evidence" prove anything? A. No, although additional information(evidence) is welcomed and encouraged, it is unnecessary.

Agreed.

Master Kenobi wrote:No, I think I'll walk YOU through the rules:

Mockery of players shows a lack of neutrality and is unbecoming of a GM. This is not about my "ego" or whatever complex you have placed on me for being skeptical of how the GMs operate. This is about a relevant challenge to the existence of a thread in the Court House.

Master Kenobi wrote:- you should submit a case and provide an evidence that abuse occured
Dallas submitted a case and I've already explained that evidence is not a necessity, because the GM must witness the botting before action can be taken.

Evidence is a necessity to protect honest players. Defamation of other players is uncalled for and is quite disconcerting to those wrongfully accused. This should be obvious.

Master Kenobi wrote:- there is quite clear and strict law - the game rules, and only issues in scope of these rules should be handled here
the game rules state that botting is not allowed, that's what was reported

Without evidence, which is needed to provide a case by a player against another player. This is stated very clearly in the rules.

Master Kenobi wrote:- there are judges, who are the only ones who can judge the particular case, only rules and evidence is taken into consideration, there are no possibility to vote upon a ban or bash certain persons.
at no point was anything but evidence taken into consideration and any "bashing" of those in question would be deleted

There was no evidence provided and the thread was about making a list and not providing evidence.

Master Kenobi wrote:- if the room (a thread), where the case is reviewed will be undertaken by people posting irrelevant input, it will be emptied by The Almighty Janitor
funny how you conveniently skipped over this rule

My points were very relevant and based on the rules being followed, which you had chosen to leave obscure when transparency would've been a better judgement call and the purpose of the forum.

Master Kenobi wrote:This forum is made for a sole purpose of fast, efficient, and transparent way to deal with abuse and to protect honest players
That is exactly what happened here.

Funny how you ignore "transparent" and abuse players with mockery that call for unsubstantial and unwarranted attacks on players to be removed from the Court House when you could've made your intentions known.

Overall Master Kenobi, you chose to be a dick when it was clear you could've made better judgement calls in this case to provide players with information on your intentions. Do not abuse the Court House, it is there for the players, not for you to be a dick.

Wombat: Overall Master Kenobi, you chose to be a dick when it was clear you could've made better judgement calls in this case to provide players with information on your intentions. Do not abuse the Court House, it is there for the players, not for you to be a dick.

in my opinion you are going much too far and passing the line of respect towards one of the most respectfull person in game !

Wombat you should apologize... you showed you are abble to be a person that is very clever and inteligent. i am sure you'll recognize you went too far. Is "power" going too high in your head? you want to be GM master chief? you want to edict the rules of the test game? what's happening to you? you're going too far of your "duty" of "player", "chief of LV", part of the "Alliance" and so on...

of course this is my opinion and i won't argue on it. (don't even try to provoc or troll i won't answer. insult me and you will discredite yourself. just think... that helps sometimes

rare but i won't say "Regards" to close my post as usual.

Jumpy, Master Kenobi deleted my comments and mocked me for posting relevant comments in the Court House. That is dick behavior. Now you have chosen to do the same. Other than this, I'd prefer not to feed your troll on this topic. This thread isn't for brown nosing. Please read what is going on.

Calling people "dicks" or their actions "brown nosing" are just as bad as calling a person a bot. And is a prime example of the hearsay you are trying to keep out of the forum. You can't use the same tactics of the people you are complaining about and still be taken seriously.

Hey Black Don, I'm not deleting people's comments. Master Kenobi is. Jumpy is brown nosing because that's what all his posts are in regards to Master Kenobi. Do you have anything to say about the actual topic?

Don't be a Dick

I wasn't looking for excuses. Its just doing those things ruins your creditability, and make you the same as those you accuse.

Fine. My apologies. I'll try to be kinder to others. Now can we get back on topic?

Wombat wrote:Jumpy, Master Kenobi deleted my comments and mocked me for posting relevant comments in the Court House. That is dick behavior. Now you have chosen to do the same. Other than this, I'd prefer not to feed your troll on this topic. This thread isn't for brown nosing. Please read what is going on.

Wombat, why do you think you get to decide what is a relevant post?

You posted that you thought the topic should be locked or moved to "player talk". You also posted the rules of the forum. Neither was relevant to the original complaint made by Dallas.

I'm sorry you thought the topic should be moved or locked. I disagree, and because it is my responsibility to make this decision and not yours the topic stays.
Also, I am well aware of the forum rules. If I were in violation of these rules I could understand the relevancy of posting them. But as this was not the case, the decision was made to delete your post as irrelevant. Your decision to continually paste your comments after deletion is what led to the topic being locked possibly prematurely.

I made the decision that this was a complaint about two suspected botters. Dallas was unable to contact a GM in game and therefore reported in the forum. This is what I encourage players to do when a GM is unavailable.

Furthermore, after considering the numerous times I've talked to these two players both before this complaint and after, the judgment was made that there is no proof of botting at this time and therefore no action will be taken.

I sorry if you disagree. You may call me a "dick" or anything else if you wish, as I believe it reflects more on you than it does myself.

Finally I would like everyone to know that I have no ill feelings toward Wombat because of this disagreement. These types of things happen when you are a GM. I know this, and never take any of these things personally. I hope you all will do the same.

MK

Hey Master Kenobi,

It isn't about me "deciding" things, I was making a point of argumentation based on the rules because a "List of Botters" does not belong in the Court House. I've stated this several times. You do not get to ride roughshod on people and I called you a dick because you were acting like one, thus your behavior is already poor enough for me to be disgruntled about it. You've named called me several times, you've screamed over and over and you've mocked me. This reflects poorly on you. The Court House is not your fiefdom nor is this game. Instead of deleting posts, you could've done what has been done dozens of times for other players that post comments in the Court House, you could've explained your intentions and you could've explained to Dallas that reports with evidence are REQUIRED in the Court House, even if it is just the time and map location where the abuse occurred. This is what transparency is and why the Court House exists. What you've done was completely uncalled for and plain out rude when I wasn't "dictating" or telling you what to do. I was stating my position on the thread and yes, those are the rules of the Court House that such threads shouldn't be there in the first place.

GMs are just players with special responsibilities to help the game run smoothly for the PLAYERS, not rulers of players and push them around whenever they disagree. Explaining yourself could've saved some trouble.

post full of laugh and fun

Wombat: ...trouble

i don't see any trouble

except yours.

you apologize but are going on saying what people should do, say and so on... may be think too...

thanks what would become of us without you, poor empty skins that we are, with no brain, no ...

no more comments.

have fun all

Regards

oh look at my signature...

and before you post next time a link read it till the end

Wombat's link: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_a_dick.
How to deal with dicks without being a dick yourself

Telling someone "Don't be a dick" is usually a dick-move - especially if it's true. It upsets the other person and it reduces the chance that they'll listen to what you say.

Focus on behaviour, not on the individual. Be specific about what you want. Be specific about why you want it. Be specific about why the other person's behaviour is counter-productive. Assume good faith to the maximum extent possible. If you don't understand why someone is doing something, ask. Don't rush to complain until you are sure that good faith negotiations can't work. Try to understand before you try to be understood.

Above all, be genuine. Don't ask questions when you know the answer. Don't say you want one thing if you want another. Don't try to persuade people of things that aren't true. Never respond to a dick by becoming a dick.