Galadriel on Archery

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Galadriel
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Galadriel on Archery

Post by Galadriel »

Archers (FYI):

Cannot equip a shield
Whether leather, wood or steel. It cannot be done. With such a hole in her/his defenses, an archer...

Uses "distance" as their "shield"
You may occasionally see 3 - 4 swords standing on the same spot (stacking) with the archers at a safer distance away. Please understand that the lack of a shield makes stacking difficult/impossible, even with the full available armor. This is made more difficult because archers...

Often set their stats very differently
Some archers are also mages, so how stats are set differs. But a successful archer will raise Dexterity far higher than any other stat. My stats were almost exclusively Dexterity as I was leveling (however, try other combinations... these were mine). I would only add a bit to Vitality or Agility if I could not raise Dexterity another point. That's because the bow's rate of fire is much slower. And accuracy is key. And Dexterity is an archer's accuracy. With defenses weaker, archers...

Often run away from approaching enemies
This frustrates some sword users. Please be patient with archers. Imagine a standard battle in real life. The warriors advance while the archers remain behind them, firing a shower of arrows.

Advantages of Archery 8)
  • More fire power. An archer's hits do have much more fire power than a warrior's who is at the same level.
  • Leveling happens quicker. Archers kill their prey far quicker than warriors.
Disadvantages of Archery :(
  • Arrows must be purchased. 5 GPs per iron arrow, and 3 GPs for standard arrows. Often racks of 2K to 5K arrows are very convenient.
  • Ammunition can run out in mid battle. Depending how long you fight with other players, you will sooner or later find yourself getting a merciless message saying: "Equip arrows first". This happens more often with impromptu battles and the archer has less than 300 arrows in the quiver.
  • Slow reload. The warrior's repeat rate for hitting their targets is much faster. It takes time to put an arrow to the string. Even with raised Agility the bow is a slow weapon.
  • Frequent death. My stats had high Dexterity and very little set aside for Vitality, the ability to take and recover from damage. And in tight situations (snake pit, for example) it is easy to be overwhelmed and die.
Setbacks for Range Weapons :cry:
* The game's initial focus is sword-based.
The player's first quest is Sandra, who rewards players with a basic bow and 100 arrows. So it would appear balanced. Allow me to illustrate how this fails.
  • Player is given sword-like tool (knife) when s/he starts.
  • To complete Sandra's quest, the Player must adjust stats for her/his current non-bow weapon (knife, sharp knife, dagger and possibly the short sword).
  • Once the bow is received, the Player's stats are probably not balanced for the bow. Stats are likely applied evenly to Str, Agi, Vit, Int, Vit and Luck, being (often) uninformed how to apply stats in general, and for the bow specifically. The player likely knows nothing about Malivox, what Malivox does... and probably can't afford to pay Malivox. So the players' stats cannot make the bow effective.
  • 100 arrows are too quickly lost to misses (badly set stats). 500 or 1000 arrows would probably be a better reward, but the current amount is simply better sold to Neko than actually used as weapons.
Therefore, Sandra's reward is seen as nice way to make a bit of money as well as determining that archery is useless for game play.

* The sheer lack of choices for bows.
  • The warrior has 7 options: Knife, Sharp Knife, Dagger, Scythe, Short Sword, Bone Knife and, ultimately, the Setzer.
  • The archer has 3 options: the basic bow, the Short Bow and the Forest Bow.
> Similar to the Bone Knife/Setzer quests, the Forest Bow can be obtained from Alan in Hurnscald thru a quest for items (wood) and 10K GPs.
>> Different from the Bone Knife/Setzer quests, the Forest Bow can be bought in Nivalis for 20K GPs like any other Nivalis souvenir. I am unaware of any NPC that sells Setzers for 20K.

Some Archery Strategies
2 archers
When targeting aggressive animals (red slime, black scorpions, various snakes, spiders, etc.) it is best for the archers to target the same prey and to keep a good distance between the archers. Aggressive enemies seem to attack the player that either does it more damage, or has done it the most recent damage. If archers do the opposite of "stacking" it seems to confuse the target and fighting in teams is more successful.

Code: Select all

archer             archer
   D                  D
          target
             S
3 archers
Similar to two archers, 3 can form a triangle with the enemy in the middle. With more targets the enemy does less movement and dies even faster. Again: "stacking" for archers is bad. They form a single target for the enemy.

Code: Select all

archer             archer
   D                  D
          target
             S

          archer
             D
Archer and Warrior
When a warrior attacks a target (Step 1) and an archer gets a shot in, the prey often leaves the warrior making a direct path for the archer (Step 2). If the warrior follows, this can be annoying for her/him. I tend to loop around (avoiding the target) and get behind the warrior. The target, drawn to the archer, heads right to the warrior (Step 3):

Code: Select all

Step 1:
   archer         target warrior
     D               S      X

Step 2:
   archer target         warrior
     D   <-  S              X

Step 3:
          target         warrior archer
             S     ->       X      D
Additional Ideas?
These are my observations, being a lvl 71 archer. They are by no means complete. If you have ideas, suggestions, improvements, I welcome them. You can either PM me, or add to this thread. Any changes/additions will be added directly to this post for convenience, and credited to you.

Either way, I will return and add comments, correct spelling/grammar, etc.
Last edited by Galadriel on 25 Sep 2009, 04:23, edited 4 times in total.
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Toksyuryel
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Re: Galadriel on Archery

Post by Toksyuryel »

As an Archer myself I fully agree with everything you said, except that Malivox has always seemed very inexpensive to me even when I was new.
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Re: Galadriel on Archery

Post by Freeyorp101 »

Toksyuryel wrote:Malivox has always seemed very inexpensive to me even when I was new.
Peavey wrote:There is 2 reasons Malivox is needed and the reset is cheap:

1) We keep changing the entire gameplay all the time, thus your stats may we perfect for eg. a melee fighter today, but useless tomorrow.
2) This is a pre-alpha test server. When people can reset, they can better help test the game in all possible combinations. Be it knowingly or just indirectly from trying to get the best stats.

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(09:58:17) < tux9th> Freeyorp: your sig on the forums is kind of outdated
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Re: Galadriel on Archery

Post by Booth »

Toksyuryel wrote:As an Archer myself I fully agree with everything you said, except that Malivox has always seemed very inexpensive to me even when I was new.
lol you shoulda been here when it was 10 mil to reset....
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Galadriel
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Re: Galadriel on Archery

Post by Galadriel »

Toksyuryel wrote:As an Archer myself I fully agree with everything you said, except that Malivox has always seemed very inexpensive to me even when I was new.
oh yes! oh, listen: no no no no complaints from me about Malivox's prices. :)

i dread that i would say anything that would cause Malivox's prices to jump! :roll:

What i meant about Malivox: a new player who gets hold of her/his very first bow:

1. probably never saw Malivox up to that point (so has no idea this is an option)
2. may fear what Malivox can do! (i've led some players to Mal who were worried a 'reset' was gonna reset them to lvl 1 instead of resetting their stats to 1 1 1 1 1 1...)
3. has ... how much gold? if they carefully sell everything to Neko... or to passers by with impressive haggling skills... can they afford the cost of a reset?

i was thinking more of a typical lvl 10 player. by this point they've probably seen what Neko sells. they have their eye on a dagger, or a shield, or hat. do they really know they should spend the 1000 GPs Vincent gives for a reset instead of Neko's shiny toys?
"Spoken like a tru lover of the beast" --zyperz, one time member of Corum's party. A little projection there, zyperz?

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Re: Galadriel on Archery

Post by DonCBen »

As a warrior, I appreciate the consideration of the loop around technique when you accidentally steal an enemy from us. That's very considerate of you :D I get tired of having to chase around pressing walk, attack, walk, attack... it gets old, and when lag sets in... forget it and just leave!
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Re: Galadriel on Archery

Post by mightydefiant »

I agree with what you say about a new player, getting just the 10 scorpion stingers to get a bow takes some time. And when I got mine, I didn't know where to go to get arrows as I didn't know Humscale existed. So that's why I didn't start using mine until lvl. 30's.

And I had an idea about the accuracy, how about some kind of scope that improves accuracy, but can only be equipped with a bow. This could reduce wasted arrows while giving the archer an advantage over a warrior. We could even have different level scopes to make some archer only quests.
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Re: Galadriel on Archery

Post by Galadriel »

DonCBen wrote:As a warrior, I appreciate the consideration of the loop around technique when you accidentally steal an enemy from us. That's very considerate of you :D I get tired of having to chase around pressing walk, attack, walk, attack... it gets old, and when lag sets in... forget it and just leave!
:mrgreen: encouraging archery must include ways to work with those who use other fighting methods. so, yeah! i thank you for your kind words!

don, i've had negative experiences with certain spells that also "steal an enemy" (#itensplz, anyone?). :x and right now it seems each distinct group works a bit too independently of the other. so, indeed! archers should and can collaborate respectfully with warriors.

i've not always done this well... i'll admit. :roll: and in some tight situations it's either hard to do correctly, or downright impossible. some spots have to be tested for improving strategies, like: the snake pit, where the loop around method is foiled either by walls... or by 35 wriggling, twisting, biting snakes all clustered and not letting me thru. when i try, i often see a spray of red numbers followed by my dead body. :|

the snake pit's an exception, in my mind. it's a place that's just nuts with snakes. the loop around method works well in open spaces that are sprinkled with peel-able mountain snakes or clusters of evil mushrooms. mmm, mushroom soup!
"Spoken like a tru lover of the beast" --zyperz, one time member of Corum's party. A little projection there, zyperz?

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Re: Galadriel on Archery

Post by DonCBen »

Yes, the aggravate spell is irritating when trying to level and all the monsters take off out into the wilderness for no known reason (except that we know the mages are out there doing it) :o

Yeah, we should all work together, this game is starting to lose it's togetherness, as noted if you look through the forums lately. Remember only 2 months ago when the skull cave had stacks of warriors, archers running around, and mages hiding on the outskirts attacking/healing? That's how it should be.

Yes, there are places where the "method" (in the next post it'll just be the "m" :lol: ) is not feasible, and I understand. Just as long as we know you try, it's the thought that counts!

And as far as me doing my part to help, I have been known to go after a monster if I see an archer taking on one and getting cornered by another, so I try to keep an eye out for you guys, too :D
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Re: Galadriel on Archery

Post by fate »

Hi,

what do you mean by `stealing an enemy'? Can't you chase after it?

-- fate
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Re: Galadriel on Archery

Post by DonCBen »

as in it changes it's focus on who it is attacking.
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Re: Galadriel on Archery

Post by fate »

DonCBen,

what I meant was-- why is it a problem that its selected target changes? You can still attack it, after all; the only difference is that it doesn't deal damage to you anymore (and you may have to move a little).

EDIT: Just to be clear on this, the above is meant as a serious question, not as a provocation or somesuch. It's hard to fix things without knowing exactly how and why they are broken, after all.

-- fate
Last edited by fate on 30 Aug 2009, 18:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Galadriel on Archery

Post by Booth »

i also have good stats for archer, if you need info just whisper me in game works best with level 83+
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Re: Galadriel on Archery

Post by Wombat »

I think it has more to do with a change in defeating monsters. I got frustrated at first, thinking it was simply obnoxious behavior, but after a while it became obvious that archers and mages changed the typical warrior stack at hunting grounds people had grown comfortable with. The problem is similar to when archers became largely outdated by warriors because of the warrior tactical advantages with the setzer + shield. The warrior stack, while not new, grew popular because of these items and so former archers became warriors and archer tactics sacked for warrior tactics.

The entrance of conflicting tactics has causes a lot of controversy and people sometimes take it a little more personal that they should. People aren't always trying to be rude by drinking a potion, dragging skulls, attacking characters in PvP when there are monsters in PvP etc. And even if they are, it probably should just be treated as a game of chess where the player is being challenged by another player with an unorthodox approach.
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Re: Galadriel on Archery

Post by Ceros »

fate wrote:DonCBen,

what I meant was-- why is it a problem that its selected target changes? You can still attack it, after all; the only difference is that it doesn't deal damage to you anymore (and you may have to move a little).

EDIT: Just to be clear on this, the above is meant as a serious question, not as a provocation or somesuch. It's hard to fix things without knowing exactly how and why they are broken, after all.

-- fate

Warriors stack for several reasons. Primarily, when you have multiple people occupying the same square attacking the same monster, you kill each monster quicker. The monster has double the targets to distribute attacks on which results in less average damage over time to each person in the stack (usually enough so that the standing regen rate of warriors can cover their damage.) When an archer comes along and pulls whatever monsters they are fighting, it can break apart the stack and for every person who leaves, the stack gets weaker. Sure, they can take up after the monster that was pulled, but in the end, they wind up more vulnerable while moving.

I will call a monster's attention 'aggro' [I don't play WoW, but it is discussed in detail here: http://www.wowwiki.com/Aggro ]. While a high level warrior may post near 200+ damage per swing and do great damage over time, an archer does short burst of very high damage (easy to do 270+ once you've maxed out Dex). The problem when warriors and archers intermingle is that the high damage of an archer will pull an enemy away from a stack unless the warrior stack is quick to hit it and regain aggro. If you look at the diagrams that Galadriel posted, you can see all of them revolve around archers splitting a monsters attention by controlling aggro.

I have found myself, when fighting skulls, using regular arrows instead of iron arrows. I have found that while this lowers my damage, it makes it less likely for me to take the skull's aggro and subsequently kill me.

If you really wanted the archers and warriors to work better together, keeping in mind aggro, then perhaps the best solution would be to retool the weapons so that bows fire faster but did lower damage (higher damage then a sword over time) and set swords to do more damage (280+ but slower). Any fix where the monsters maintained focus on the tanks and the archers had better ability to pour fire on them would improve co-operation between classes.

As it is now, warriors don't want archers to pull monsters off their stack, and archers don't want to be tied down to a small area because they are sitting ducks.
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