Accepting and Criticizing

Ultim · Post by **Ultim** » 24 Sep 2005, 04:46

"Let's not throw things out we shouldn't throw out. Let's keep things in that we can keep in."

Bill Gates said that in a newspaper article i read. It really got me thinking on how we have the general mindset here that if it doesn't look really good and if it doesn't fit in with all the other tiles and if it isn't exactly tileable we should throw it out. But... "Let's keep things in that we can keep in." It sounds like a pretty good motto for a new kind of thinking we should maybe think of taking up. What do you guys think?

skeptisk · Post by **skeptisk** » 24 Sep 2005, 05:11

I'm alright with that as long as we don't end up with TMW Vista.

maci · Post by **maci** » 24 Sep 2005, 06:17

bill gates is an dumb asshole
he has enough money to throw everything out which doesnt fit..

we dont..

we need to change it

Ultim · Post by **Ultim** » 24 Sep 2005, 06:19

Well, yes, you could act with prejudice and shoot it down for its writer. But that's not really why i put the quote first.

Wait... no, he doesn't throw anything out. That was the point. If it's possible to keep it, he does.

Post by **Modanung** » 24 Sep 2005, 09:30

That's why Microsoft MSN Messenger takes 15 MB! And that excludes any add-ons.
Google Talk and Miranda IM both take only 4.

Anyway, ofcourse we could leave not-good art in to fill up space in maps and such. But to have a goodlooking game in the end these pieces of art should be replaced, keeping a list of things that should be replaced is near to impossible. Besides, it's insulting when your art gets a label "to be replaced" on it.

Post by **Talaroc** » 24 Sep 2005, 09:33

Ultim wrote:Wait... no, he doesn't throw anything out. That was the point. If it's possible to keep it, he does.

Yeah, but for the most part he's not making it. He's grabbing it from the folks who did.
Cut that anti-Microsoft rant short...

There's a fiune balance that needs to be maintained to make a good game, here. People such as myself, artists, tend to want to see everything fit into a particular conception that they have for the game, which can make things difficult. However, you have to take into account what we need "possible to keep" to mean; in our case, it's got to be tileable (assuming it's a tile) and in-style, which includes following certain preestablished guidelines (ie, no black outlining) as well as maintaining a certain level of quality.

degen · Post by **degen** » 24 Sep 2005, 11:23

I so totaly agree with Talaroc we have guide lines in teh wiki and perhaps they should be updated every now adn then to be more precise if they arent ... that is in every part/section of the game.

Just because the art lets say tile in this example isnt good it doesnt meen his idea isnt good, every piece that we show might affect others to come up with better ways or improve existing tiles or future made ones ...

To tell an artist that his tile isnt game worthy jsut because of the looks and be framed "replaced" would only affect that artist in a bad way ... i am very stuck with the idea of "every idea you have is a good one"

Critism and objectivity are soemthing that should go hand in hand in my opinion ... Critism shoudl always be said in a way to enhance or improve otehrs ideas.

i hope i make some sense

Post by **Bjørn** » 24 Sep 2005, 11:43

Modanung wrote:Google Talk and Miranda IM both take only 4.

Actually Google Talk is just 2.2 MB. I think it's great how they managed to leave out all those dumb features and really hope it won't get bloated in the future.

TMW shouldn't get bloated either, I think we should keep in mind to have a good quality/MB ratio. Of course we should encourage any artist to create stuff but we should stay selective about what we accept I think. I agree with Talaroc that "to be replaced" label can be insulting, and would prefer to wait with accepting such art until it's good enough instead.

degen · Post by **degen** » 24 Sep 2005, 11:50

bjorn well said

ooh i might ahve gone deeper in that then it was ment to be

ooh well sorry if i said to much

well i agree with bjorn in that sentence that instead of accepting ti its better to give remarks on improvements and then see if he can improve it to a standard where its high enough standard to be implented or close to.

i am not that good at pixel art and i admit it i ahve jsut started doing it

but still i want to contribute and its really fun that the ideas and work i do gets possitive response even if i know (and hope that it wont be implented yet i would feel to embarassed

) but that doesnt meen i should stop working on improvements right

some time it might be great piece of work ^^ (can always hope)

Post by **Rotonen** » 24 Sep 2005, 14:09

We don't need strict management since we don't really have deadlines and our weekly artist meetings are finally starting to work and people have started o consult each other. I'm starting to feel like an art director instead of an art dictator.

Btw, MSN Messenger is so big since it's about 75% adware.

Tenche · Post by **Tenche** » 28 Sep 2005, 02:56

I think ANYTHING Bill Gates says or does ether doesent work or is dumb so allthough its true i still dont like Bill Gates He has enough money to buy a cupple states

<-----Mac user who doesent own a PC

Post by **Crush** » 28 Sep 2005, 03:53

yes bill gates is evil!
he is the most evil person in the world!
and microsoft is evil, too!
and everything microsoft has ever produced and will ever produce is evil, too!
and everything microsoft made is pure crap. the only reason why they are the world leader in software is because they sold their souls to satan!
oh, have i already mentioned that they are evil?

sorry, but your mindless microsoft bashing is very contra productive.

ok, i got something else for you.

The chief software architect of a world leading software company which we don't want to mention here because it is absolutely irrelevant said: "Let's not throw things out we shouldn't throw out. Let's keep things in that we can keep in."

Can we now discuss about the philosophy behind this sentence like adults?

Post by **Bjørn** » 29 Sep 2005, 19:28

If you're going to say "Let's not throw things out we shouldn't throw out. Let's keep things in that we can keep in.", why not continue with "And let's do what we can do, let's not what we can't. Oh and why don't we add the features we should add, and leave out those that we should leave out? Meanwhile can we design the server the way it should be designed, while not doing a bad design, cause bad designs are bad..." Man I am so smart! Why didn't I think of this before!

Wether Bill Gates said it or not doesn't make it any less stupidly obvious.

To apply this to tilesets, of course we try to keep things that we can keep, and not to throw out what we shouldn't throw out. Same way that we avoid going to the toilet when we don't need to go.

Post by **ElvenProgrammer** » 30 Sep 2005, 18:49

BjÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¸rn wrote:Same way that we avoid going to the toilet when we don't need to go.

I have to disagree on that. You can go to the toilet even if you don't need to. You do it when you think you won't be able to go for a long time. Think about it, and you'll see that Bill is not so stupid as it shows.

Post by **Bjørn** » 30 Sep 2005, 20:23

ElvenProgrammer wrote:I have to disagree on that. You can go to the toilet even if you don't need to. You do it when you think you won't be able to go for a long time. Think about it, and you'll see that Bill is not so stupid as it shows. :P

I'll have to disagree with this, as clearly when you won't be able to go to the toilet for a long time, there is actually the need to go. :-P