Dear TMW Community.

A place for players to do role playing, discuss their guilds, etc.
Locked
User avatar
Platyna
Former Dictator
Former Dictator
Posts: 2216
Joined: 19 Nov 2005, 14:19
Location: Poland
Contact:

Dear TMW Community.

Post by Platyna » 09 Mar 2013, 22:16

The server was moved without my consent, by the people who I have put my trust on and between who I divided my powers, just because I refused to give them the absolute power. I managed the server and was doing well. The lag was caused by programming issues, they kept refusing to fix untill the server was moved (I think it could be even the part of plan as original TMW developers could code the server the way that its efficiency wasn't compromised). I was threaten, insulted and as you can see, ALL my powers were removed. We will see what the new "admins" will do if TMW will receive DDoS from some abuse that was banned from TMW, as it used to be, and their services will be suspended.

I am sorry that I didn't prevent that brutal take over. Power hungry people destroyed many nice projects, I am sorry I couldn't prevent it.

The best part is that they keep telling everyone that they informed me and there was the time to discuss it - that what communist regime was doing in Poland less than 25 years ago. Words can't describe how much contempt I have for this kind of people.

Unbelievelable what do people can do to take over power over an online game.

However I do not regret any time I spend helping TMW. However, before contributing to TMW, remember how the old, original contributors are treated. Quote of the day "we don't need you anymore [see ya]". I will notify the hosting company about these data take over, this is all I can do for you.

Regards.
User avatar
Bjørn
TMW Adviser
TMW Adviser
Posts: 1430
Joined: 09 Dec 2004, 19:50
Location: North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
Contact:

Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Bjørn » 09 Mar 2013, 22:40

Platyna, I agreed with the move as did ElvenProgrammer (who had to change the DNS settings). However, I'm sure neither of us knows much about what's going on in this community these days. If you only just found out, then I can only conclude the same counts for you.

I do not endorse the direction this project is going in general. The idea of developing an own server has been abandoned in favour of fixing up tmwAthena. Client development has been outsourced to ManaPlus. Both are projects driven by a single person, so as far as I can see there's nothing left of the team we had years ago. To me it's depressing, but I've accepted it as there is nothing I can do about it.

My advice to you is, let it go. The Mana World is driven by new forces now, but at least it's driven by forces at all. They got time in their favour, like we had in the good old days. Let them improve and fix The Mana World as they see fit. Maybe we will be surprised by what this project can achieve.
User avatar
Platyna
Former Dictator
Former Dictator
Posts: 2216
Joined: 19 Nov 2005, 14:19
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Platyna » 09 Mar 2013, 22:47

Bjorn, I suspected that the fact you and Elven are no longer active was blatantly exploited, still I think you acted unwisely leaving TMW in the hands of powerhungry people who went into an argument with me just because I refused to change the good system that was working for years just to enable them to have more power!

Look, they hate me so much that they even removed my GM privs (that I used to make events - looks that they didn't like them), or the forum privs.

It is the worst thing that could happen. Hell, I bought a dedicated machine for TMW, I was preparing a great suprice, how on earth I underestant that you are not active anymore, but I can't imagine, how you could do such thing without even exchanging with me a few sentences.

I am not mad, I am incredibly shocked and disgusted - that people fro civilized countries can use such communist, totalitarian and dirthy methods to gain power on the Internet. I have a right to - I have spent 7 years of my life and significant amount of money, I risked whole Platinum project for TMW (I was warned several times that if DDoS will not stop I will have to remove the server from the data center), just to log in one day and learn that, cite "we don't need you anymore" (thanks o11c for that honest quote, you have shown what a real piece of a bastard you are).

Regards.
User avatar
WildX
Development Producer
Development Producer
Posts: 1360
Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 15:13
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by WildX » 09 Mar 2013, 23:15

I suspected something weird was going on when they said they sent you a mail and that they weren't even sure you had seen it.
The fact that you've been cut off completely from the project, to me, confirms that they just wanted to get rid of you. I hate this kind of things.
I hope this thread will start a serious discussion about what has been done and maybe everything can get back to normal soon.
User avatar
Platyna
Former Dictator
Former Dictator
Posts: 2216
Joined: 19 Nov 2005, 14:19
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Platyna » 09 Mar 2013, 23:22

They also said that was the will of the TMW community and ALL the players agreed...perhaps they read the history of Poland before 1989 - many examples of the "will of the community" are there.

I have digged through all my mailbox, checked server logs, nothing was sent to me, and the discussion about GMs being made developers was just brought up again as, to cite "after the server move [Platyna's removal] this is free to be discussed again".

Regards.
Last edited by Platyna on 09 Mar 2013, 23:23, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
o11c
Knight
Knight
Posts: 2262
Joined: 20 Feb 2011, 22:09
Location: ^ ^

Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by o11c » 09 Mar 2013, 23:23

Since I was directly addressed, I supposed I will respond.
Platyna wrote:Look, they hate me so much that they even removed my GM privs (that I used to make events - looks that they didn't like them), or the forum privs.
We removed your privileges because you no longer have any need for them - you are no longer the host, and you have not been active with TMW development for ages.

And we are quite capable of making our own events.
Platyna wrote:It is the worst thing that could happen. Hell, I bought a dedicated machine for TMW, I was preparing a great suprice,
We don't need surprises. We need presence.
Platyna wrote:just to log in one day and learn that, cite "we don't need you anymore" (thanks o11c for that honest quote, you have shown what a real piece of a bastard you are).
You're welcome - I will never consider being "honest" as an insult.

The preparation for the move was as simple as checking to see whether there was anything you provided that would could not find an alternative fo - and this was the result.


Edit:
Platyna wrote:They also said that was the will of the TMW community and ALL the players agreed...perhaps they read the history of Poland before 1989 - many examples of the "will of the community" are there.
We never claimed that, only that this decision was made unanimously by the Senior Developers and all the GMs.

But, I haven't heard any complaints from players yet.
Former programmer for the TMWA server.
User avatar
Platyna
Former Dictator
Former Dictator
Posts: 2216
Joined: 19 Nov 2005, 14:19
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Platyna » 09 Mar 2013, 23:27

You are not a person who has ANY right to decide what TMW administrator needs what priviledges. TMW community members are not idiots. I was less active but I kept my eye on TMW, and also Bjorn and Elven are even less active and you didn't kicked them out the management team, oh yes, they weren't those who kept you away from absolute powers... Bad, bad Platyna.

You exploited the fact that I have intersemestral exams, and that Bjorn and Elven are inactive, stop making excuses, people of TMW are not idiots, so stop treating them like that.

However it is some wicked way funny that you now deny things you were writing on IRC not more than 2 hours ago. Well I got an imporant lesson - my recognition of people is flawed - how on earth I could let a person like you to have ANY powers over the project I managed...

Bjorn, Elven: question to you: did you give a permission to kick me out of GHP?

Regards.
Ablu
Novice
Novice
Posts: 281
Joined: 23 Jul 2011, 09:31
Location: Germany

Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Ablu » 09 Mar 2013, 23:32

Since you quoted o11c. Here is the full context:
The discussion happened in two channels (#themanaworld on freenode and on the old irc server):

old irc.themanaworld.org (it started here):

Code: Select all

[21:43:13] --> Platyna (platyna@platinum-E88D7ABE.edu.pl) has joined #themanaworld
[21:43:36] <Platyna> WTF?
[21:43:58] <o11c> Platyna: what? we left.
[21:44:20] <Platyna> You left what?
[21:44:50] <o11c> TMW has left Platinum, didn't you notice?
[21:44:54] <Frost> Platyna: we sent you email earlier this week.
[21:45:01] <Frost> A day later, we posted to the forums
[21:45:03] <Platyna> I am an admin of TMW.
[21:45:08] <o11c> not anymore
[21:45:13] <Platyna> Says who?
[21:45:27] <o11c> says everyone except you
[21:45:28] <Frost> You hosted TMW for many years.
[21:45:40] <Frost> That was valuable, and I'm sure also a burden at times.
[21:45:42] <Platyna> You have stolen data from TMW.
[21:45:52] <Frost> (especially with the complaints about lag and such)
[21:46:24] <Frost> We notified you of the intention to move to another host, then announced it in public, then made the move.
[21:46:25] <o11c> the nice part was that *nothing* went wrong during the migration, and now we have much less lag
[21:46:33] <o11c> Platyna: it's not your data
[21:46:43] <Platyna> I was responsible for the data.
[21:46:52] <Platyna> I have given you the access as the act of trust.
[21:46:58] <Platyna> And you have just failed.
[21:47:27] <o11c> Platyna: our decision to move was unanimous among all the GMs and Senior Developers
[21:47:28] <Frost> There appears to be disagreement about who "owns" TMW
[21:47:43] <o11c> and the players have also rejoiced
[21:48:12] --> Ghost (c02bf42a@platinum-E97BAE56.mibbit.com) has joined #themanaworld
[21:48:12] <Frost> Platyna, it was discussed and decided that you do not own TMW.
[21:48:17] <Frost> That's not meant as any insult.
[21:48:31] <Frost> The decision was really that no single person (except maybe Elven) "owns" it.
[21:48:46] <Platyna> I am not going to discuss that with you.
[21:48:52] <Platyna> You stolen the data from accounts on my server.
[21:49:02] <Platyna> So I will notify appropriate services.
[21:49:34] <o11c> It's not your game, it's Elven's. And he agreed.
[21:50:13] <Frost> Platyna: if you pursue legal action for theft of TMW from you, we cannot stop you.
[21:50:15] <o11c> we don't need you anymore.
[21:50:37] <Platyna> I don't think that Elven would do something like that without any notice.
[21:50:45] <Platyna> Anyway, it is disgusting.
[21:50:48] <o11c> Platyna: we notified you several days ago
[21:50:57] <o11c> if you were in contact ...
[21:51:00] <Platyna> Oh sure.
[21:51:19] <Platyna> My mailbox suddenly was broken, so I didn't got any email. ;)
[21:51:30] <Frost> Actually, this seems consistent with your previous statements that the game should not be about any single person, but about the community.
[21:51:37] <o11c> we also made a forum announcement
[21:51:46] <Frost> I'm surprised that you aren't happy the community is strong enough to make this move so successfully.
[21:51:47] <o11c> and held a meeting in-game
[21:52:00] <Platyna> That's why divided the powers and I gave you the access to the services.
[21:52:13] <Platyna> You took over the TMW because you wanted more power I refused to give you.
[21:52:31] <o11c> no, we are TMW, and we left you because you were unresponsive
[21:52:44] <o11c> among other things
[21:52:53] <Frost> We tried to contact you about this. We posted the information publicly. We communicated with everyone else, except were unable to get a reply from you.
[21:53:09] <Frost> This was not meant as a personal insult. We genuinely tried to include you.
[21:53:13] <Frost> I'm sorry that didn't work.
[21:53:30] <Platyna> o11c: Yeah, no one believes that.
[21:53:48] <Ablu> I do
[21:53:52] <Platyna> If elven given you the consent it is because he was busy, and you wanted more power.
[21:54:09] <Frost> 64 people currently logged into the game believe it.
[21:54:34] <Frost> I'm sorry you see this as a personal betrayal, rather than a success of the community around an open-source game.
[21:54:34] <Ghost> lag free
[21:54:41] <Platyna> Are you stupid or what? You moved the accounts and you changed the DNS.
[21:54:46] <Platyna> So they didn't even noticed.
[21:54:53] <Platyna> You abused the trust and powers I gave you.
[21:54:57] <Frost> We've been discussing it for days
[21:55:00] <Platyna> And this is a living example why I was right.
[21:55:08] <o11c> all the players were aware of what was happening
[21:55:18] <Ablu> Everyone knows it. There are news entries, forums threads
[21:55:34] <Frost> If you were excluded from the conversation, it was only because you were so out of touch.
[21:55:35] <o11c> Elven forgot to drop the TTL, so half the people had to hard-code the IP
[21:55:37] <Frost> We tried.
[21:55:49] <Frost> There's an active discussion on Freenode during the whole move.
[21:56:14] <Platyna> Please, do not excuse yourself. You do it because you know it is disgusting.
[21:56:30] <Platyna> Enjoy the power you have taken over in a dirty way.
[21:56:30] <Frost> I excuse nothing.
[21:56:37] <Platyna> You are a scum. :)
[21:56:49] <o11c> we are the people who make TMW a great thing.
[21:56:56] <Frost> We're the TMW community.
[21:57:05] <Frost> I'm sorry you consider that scum.
[21:57:36] <Platyna> No, you are the people who were given too much power, requested more power and were refused to get it so you taken over TMW by force.
[21:57:51] <Frost> Your words don't make it clear that you have the TMW community at heart, but maybe yourself instead.
[21:58:11] <Ghost> Just one question: where is the harm for you in this?
[21:58:13] <Frost> Again, I'm sorry you are personally hurt by this success of the community.
[21:58:18] <Frost> You are not banned, btw.
[21:58:19] <Ghost> We have a lag free environment the players enjoy it
[21:58:33] <Ghost> where is the downside, please tell
[21:59:26] <Platyna> The lag started when certain people started to "develop" the game.
[21:59:37] <Platyna> So it seems it was the part of the plan.
[21:59:38] <Ghost> so why did it subside?
[21:59:54] <Platyna> As the network connectivity and machine was analyzed numerous times.
[21:59:58] <Platyna> So, good work. :)
[21:59:58] <o11c> the lag started getting really bad in the middle of two releases
[22:00:18] <Frost> I'm surprised this conversation is happening so late, when there was quite a lot of time to discuss it before the move.
[22:00:31] <Ghost> So you think we plotted all of the lag to get the players to hate this then find a new host and then move and fix the lag right when we move?
[22:05:27] <Platyna> Goodbye.
[22:05:29] <-- Platyna (platyna@platinum-E88D7ABE.edu.pl) has quit (Quit: Killed (Beeth (joke with no taste, do not repeat)))
Log of #themanaworld on freenode (the log overlap, so check for time):

Code: Select all

[21:54:21] --> platyna (~platyna@c69-143.icpnet.pl) has joined #themanaworld
[21:55:18] <platyna> Well, seems that powerhungry people who has no decency has won. :)
[21:55:26] <platyna> And stolen data from the server and moved it elswhere.
[21:56:45] <Anonycat> If you have a bank account, and you withdraw $100 from the bank, did you steal that money from them?
[21:56:49] <prsm> stolen is harsh words
[21:58:08] <platyna> I was given those data by Elven and Bjorn.
[21:58:14] <platyna> And I was responsible for them
[21:58:40] <platyna> And it was taken by force just because some peope were refused to get more power in addition to the power I gave them.
[21:59:11] <prsm> we all appreciate the time that you hosted, this was not a power move
[22:00:06] --> Havvy (~havvy@unaffiliated/havvy) has joined #themanaworld
[22:00:22] --> dorohoro (~kvirc@37.19.107.4) has joined #themanaworld
[22:00:35] <platyna> prsm: The lag was not the machine issue.
[22:00:50] <platyna> And Frost and o11c wants more power.
[22:00:55] <prsm> no one was blaming you for that Platyna
[22:01:00] <platyna> Now they sit on the old channel and keep insulting me.
[22:01:20] --> thanoulis (5e447011@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.68.112.17) has joined #themanaworld
[22:01:24] <o11c> we remained on the old server to redirect people still connecting
[22:01:32] <o11c> and also because we heard you were banned from freenode
[22:01:35] <platyna> Oh yes, no one was blaming me, but people I have put trust into stolen the data and now are writing bullshit on the Platinum's channel.
[22:01:53] <platyna> Oh that's why you moved the channel here?
[22:02:05] <o11c> no, that was a downside
[22:02:22] <prsm> well i for one dont condone that
[22:02:37] <Frostypants> Obviously she's not banned.
[22:02:40] <o11c> but since your IRC server is troublesome, and we were seeing if moving was feasible, we decided to use freenode
[22:02:46] <Frostypants> I think it's fair to have a discussion in public.
[22:02:50] <platyna> I am unable to express the contempt I feel now. I have tried to pick the right and trusthworthy people and divide the powers between them, I tried to prevent the power fights.
[22:02:56] <platyna> Well I failed.
[22:03:06] <Frostypants> Actually, this move was devoid of power fights.
[22:03:15] <o11c> and yet, all of us have done good things to the extent of our abilities
[22:03:18] <Frostypants> It was the result of a team of people who worked closely to make everything happen.
[22:03:24] <Frostypants> The result, so far, is quite good.
[22:03:30] <o11c> and the only one complaining about power is you
[22:03:31] <platyna> Oh sure you will not have to fight when you got all the power.
[22:03:36] <platyna> ;)
[22:03:40] <Frostypants> I suggest that the real measure of success is from the people who play.
[22:03:52] <platyna> Server was troublesome? Because it was being ddosed because of tmw?
[22:03:55] <o11c> power is no longer concentrated in one person. That is a Good Thing.
[22:04:08] <Frostypants> Server was troublesome. The cause was never identified.
[22:04:12] <platyna> Power since ages wasn't concentrated in one person.
[22:04:12] <o11c> platyna: no, I mean in that your IRC server can't be connected to from various useful bots
[22:04:22] <platyna> That's why you could steal and move the data.
[22:04:31] <o11c> platyna: you are saying that you deserve all the power.
[22:04:42] <Frostypants> I'll find the insults I said on your IRC server to paste here.
[22:04:45] <o11c> it's not your data, it's the players
[22:04:53] <platyna> Well, I contempt you. You will destroy this project. However I did everything to prevent it.
[22:05:04] <platyna> Goodbye.
[22:05:07] <Frostypants> <Frost> We notified you of the intention to move to another host, then announced it in public, then made the move.
[22:05:08] <-- platyna (~platyna@c69-143.icpnet.pl) has quit (Quit: leaving)
[22:05:16] -*- Frostypants sighs
Time is GMT +1 (Berlin timezone)
User avatar
WildX
Development Producer
Development Producer
Posts: 1360
Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 15:13
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by WildX » 09 Mar 2013, 23:39

o11c wrote:But, I haven't heard any complaints from players yet.
Get ready because they're coming.
No one complained yet because you didn't say how things really were, or at least you omitted important details. Like the fact that this move wasn't discussed with Platyna (who may not be very active, but IS still active) at all.
BoomerTheKran
Peon
Peon
Posts: 47
Joined: 11 Dec 2010, 22:07
Location: Kentucky, USA

Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by BoomerTheKran » 09 Mar 2013, 23:54

GGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
This IS a sig
User avatar
Platyna
Former Dictator
Former Dictator
Posts: 2216
Joined: 19 Nov 2005, 14:19
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Platyna » 09 Mar 2013, 23:57

Wild, I will make copies of this thread, as I have already learned from the aforementioned IRC talk what kind of management is comming. I expect to be banned soon, as I am not letting it go, and at least I will try to inform TMW community how the things really were.

Regards.
User avatar
o11c
Knight
Knight
Posts: 2262
Joined: 20 Feb 2011, 22:09
Location: ^ ^

Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by o11c » 10 Mar 2013, 00:02

Platyna wrote:I expect to be banned soon, as I am not letting it go, and at least I will try to inform TMW community how the things really were.
Unlike you, we don't ban people or hide threads when we have a disagreement with them. You would have to be *very* disruptive before we would consider banning you - we will err on the side of caution.

We deliberately withheld some of our reasons from the initial announcement to protect your reputation. Thankfully, you have now taken that away yourself.
Former programmer for the TMWA server.
User avatar
Platyna
Former Dictator
Former Dictator
Posts: 2216
Joined: 19 Nov 2005, 14:19
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Platyna » 10 Mar 2013, 00:09

My reputation is flawless, and I do protect it myself. Saying that I banned people for disagreeing with me is a slander, but I was prepared for this.

You will not ban me now, as you know very well, that you lied about TMW community consent, you lied to me, you lied to Bjorn and Elven.

Now when the truth came out (I am in game talking with players in this very moment), if you have elements of decency, prepare a current backup of TMW, send me it and remove all TMW files from your machine, as TMW players paid for the machine these were hosted on and they did not agreed you to take over my position and take over the files.

Regards.
User avatar
Piateluca
Novice
Novice
Posts: 190
Joined: 19 May 2011, 02:50

Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Piateluca » 10 Mar 2013, 01:16

It might sound selfish but I hope this doesn't end on a dead or divided community...
User avatar
Freeyorp101
Archivist Prime
Archivist Prime
Posts: 754
Joined: 04 Nov 2008, 10:17
Location: New Zealand

Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Freeyorp101 » 10 Mar 2013, 01:27

Oh my goodness. This is quite surreal.

I think there has been some breakdown in communications behind the scenes here. Over past months I've been emailed and dropped by a few times to act as message runner a few times, which while somewhat amusing at the time ("You guys did say you sent an Email and message over IRC, right? That's exactly what I do, I don't see why doing it again will make any difference, you know. :>") becomes less so in hindsight.

I can't be sure exactly what's happened here. Each side seems to be complaining that they hear nothing from the other, in various forms. As I understand it: Platyna has felt left out of the loop for some time now and that people had been plotting behind her back; the current Team felt there wasn't enough leadership and presence to go on, with threads in private subforums pleading for a ruling going unanswered for weeks until gaining a response they felt inadequate. I conjecture this degenerated over time, with the Team's attempt to gain autonomy, just to get by, being seen as accumulation of power that has historically proven toxic to the project.

I'm sad to see that it had to come to this, and that people were not able to talk everything over and work things out. I suppose that's the core of the problem, in a way, and I can't help but feel partly to blame here. In my hurry to find a competent successor to keep things running despite my increasingly busy workload, I suspect I focused too much on the technical and not enough on the social, so to speak. Looking around at various timestamps, it seems that Rotonen had faded away not long after me; he was always far better at keeping things organised where needed than I was, and I should have realised the implications sooner. With people being too busy to talk on one side and too afraid to talk on another, this sort of explosive result with everyone trying to hard-line the other was, I suppose, inevitable.

I'm sorry that I wasn't able to prevent this sort of bitter exile. I'm sorry to see one of the oldest and most invaluable members of the project hurt and overthrown in such a way. I'm sorry to see this pain in so many threads, and can only imagine what it must be like after so long. I'm sorry for any and all of my failings in any of my responsibilities that I may have had. I wish I could do more, but I feel that whatever happens, everyone is going to have a bitter taste in the back of their mouth for a very long time. :(


---Freeyorp
(09:58:17) < tux9th> Freeyorp: your sig on the forums is kind of outdated
Locked