Undercutting Manamarket prices

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Rubikon
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Undercutting Manamarket prices

Post by Rubikon »

Hello

I want to share a discussion about this player. He continues to accuse me, the reason why I set a lower price for an article, in this case it is about "Elf NightCap". I just want to understand, and also learn, if I'm wrong. Also, I've never seen a rule about prices. I think the pricing depends only on the seller. Every seller decides for his price. You can see in the screenshot some of the words.
Someone was selling that hat in manamarket for 3.5M
And i was selling the same hat for 1M

Rubikon

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mayo2019
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Re: ShakeSpear a.k.a DeadZone

Post by mayo2019 »

first hi for all players here on the manaworld game.then i will answer about what rubikon psot right know and i want every GM.and player and admin post his answer and tell me if i wrong.from about 2 monthes at least ago i heard from all my friends that the prices on MM are lower than old prices and i asked myself why because i left game from while then when i return i found too low prices on MM for rares from 7 years or even more that no one can get it now at all only from GM events.so i opened the manamarket sales and statistics to see whats new on did that same as i heard.and i want all players open both sites and see with own eyes .thats ok .after that i opened game and found every new day the same rares or ilia items on MM one for real price and one lower than at least 2 million of the price of item that all old players same as me knew it. okay then tried it myself with some of my rares and my bull helmet .everyday new items on MM and one real price and one too low price.
everytime i put item after 30 minutes i saw it on MM lower than price by millions.so i tried to see who make this and why.then i found rubikon (lol)and i knew for sure that he has about 55 millions or more and i dont care.thats ok and from only few days i bought rares from him and not with too low prices but the real price with exchange not on MM and i knew for sure that he has at least 2 accounts on MM or 4 and thats against rules of game and i want developers test this and see if i am wrong or for sure true. and i want all players look on MM sales for these days you will see something like eggshell hat for 400 k or heart glasses for 500 k and everyday items on MM removed and new items put not 1 item but more.the rubikon did is that good for game or bad for all players on MM not for me.is that greedy from him and no respect for other players or iam wrong.and i want to say to rubikon if you want to destroying MM prices and game prices and other players on MM you can make your own private seller with tmwchat clinet because MM is not own to u only but for all players on this game.and i want answers and i want admin or dev looks on MM and see everyday new items and remove +put about 5 times per day if rubikon saw anyone put anything on MM. thanks for all player who will read this post and i want answers.

Last edited by mayo2019 on 20 Jun 2020, 08:09, edited 1 time in total.
mayo2019
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Re: ShakeSpear a.k.a DeadZone

Post by mayo2019 »

i forgot something from 1 day ago i saw with my eyes rubikon put towel for 4.5 kk only and there is a player name jersey lvl 90+ saw this too and saw that is wierd and for sure i know that towel cost from just 1 year ago from 15 to 20 kk and now players sell for 10 kk at least . the same day it removed and put with 6.5 kk then removed again and put for 5 kk and the same happend for each item on MM if rubikon saw it and have it and want all money on game so put lowest price and dont care about other players who put thier items too at least 50 times did that.thanks for all and i want all developers and admins and GMs check that.

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kytty
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Re: ShakeSpear a.k.a DeadZone

Post by kytty »

DeadZone, it is Admins+Gms job to tell players to stop if there is abuse on ManaMarket. Only ManaMarket Admins are able to see who is selling what in there, no way you can tell if that was him doing it. And YES, Rubikon can sell his items at any price he wants, there is no rule on prices. Please next time instead of confronting people, ask a GM if you think there is abuse.

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Re: ShakeSpear a.k.a DeadZone

Post by Bobisha »

This is quite odd. If someone is using the MM to purposely undercut other players and making it a point to continually do so by removing and re-posting an item at a lower price is a big hassle. I have seen this a few times where an item gets placed on MM for one price, and shortly after, the same item is put up for a lot lower of a price. Almost as though, whoever is doing this is trying manipulate the price to get an item or items at a severely reduced price, or purposely undercut others to take the money for him/herself and stop others from making any deals for themselves.

I also do remember seeing the Towel for sale as well. I don't know what the original selling price was, but when I saw it for sale for only 4.5kk, I found it off that someone would sell it for so cheap. I remember when the Towel would go for 10-15kk+ on average, if not more.

This is why I stopped using the MM and do all my buying and selling wither through my own character shop, or directly with another player after talking with him/her to see if we can come up with a deal that we can both agree on.

Jersey Devil

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Cyrus the Great
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Re: ShakeSpear a.k.a DeadZone

Post by Cyrus the Great »

Well, this is my first post after about 7-8 years. In my humble opinion, everybody has the right to sell their property for any price they desire.

I do understand mayo2019's concerns, nevertheless I think we should respect the free market economy.

Seriously, what's wrong if I use Mana Market to sell a Warlord Helmet for 100K, while another player offers his own helmet for 50K?
Players can select their desired choice and buy what they see fair. Playing TMW since 2010, It's clear to me that prices tend to change over time as new items are introduced to the game.

To conclude, I believe that Rubikon has the right to offer his items for any price he likes to, as long as it's a valid offer and he stays committed to selling them at the claimed price.

"Success always calls for greater generosity — though most people, lost in the darkness of their own egos, treat it as an occasion for greater greed."
Cyrus the Great

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Cage
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Re: ShakeSpear a.k.a DeadZone

Post by Cage »

Any player should be able to sell any item at whatever price he feels is right for him, but what I feel that is wrong is having many ManaMarket accounts under one same player!

mayo2019
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Re: ShakeSpear a.k.a DeadZone

Post by mayo2019 »

as my respect of all players and thier posts but anyone think that the forums about money or selling items didnot understand anything from this forums at all .and i wish that other players will not understand forums here like this.thanks for your posts and iam not the one who make this forums by the way.

Rubikon
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Re: ShakeSpear a.k.a DeadZone

Post by Rubikon »

Hello.

As the so-called DeadZone puts it, it's a mistake. I’ve always told him that the reason for the price drop is the reason there are few players left. I have also always told them that I want to give everyone a chance on whatever article they are looking for. So lowering the price means less work from players to claim that item. And I don’t see any harm in it.
I can't figure out what DeadZone also said about buying from me.
I gave SkullMask for 1.9M and some small swords for it.
But with all my greatest respect for everyone, as well as for you DeadZone, I think this post should end with that, because there is no reason for any conflict between us. We are all friends.
Good Luck . Best Regards
Rubikon.

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Livio
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Re: ShakeSpear a.k.a DeadZone

Post by Livio »

mayo2019 wrote: 07 Jun 2020, 14:36

thanks for all and i want all developers and admins and GMs check that.

Game Masters are meant for game rule enforcement. I've found no game rules about economy so GMs can enforce nothing on it.

mayo2019 wrote: 07 Jun 2020, 14:36

i forgot something from 1 day ago i saw with my eyes rubikon put towel for 4.5 kk only and there is a player name jersey lvl 90+ saw this too and saw that is wierd and for sure i know that towel cost from just 1 year ago from 15 to 20 kk and now players sell for 10 kk at least . the same day it removed and put with 6.5 kk then removed again and put for 5 kk and the same happend for each item on MM if rubikon saw it and have it and want all money on game so put lowest price and dont care about other players who put thier items too at least 50 times did that.thanks for all and i want all developers and admins and GMs check that.

As people around told you economy is free even if it may unbalance the game. Overpowered people will get bored soon and give up playing letting their hoarded items inactive and forgotten or making huge donations to n00bs just to feel better (that not how people should help each other in my opinion but that's another story).
If economy is unfair to you it's just your own problem you are always free to withdraw from ManaMarket bot as well to earn money in other ways.

Rubikon wrote: 08 Jun 2020, 06:41

I’ve always told him that the reason for the price drop is the reason there are few players left. I have also always told them that I want to give everyone a chance on whatever article they are looking for. So lowering the price means less work from players to claim that item. And I don’t see any harm in it.

Contributing to make game easier and boring and drawing GMs and developers attention on topics that may not improve game further is no good to me.
If you are rich and want to really help n00bs enjoying game you may sell colored items at low price that have no real effect on unbalancing game between players of the same level like cotton shirts, skirts, gloves, boots and so on. Seems that players (maybe lots of girls) like it a lot and sometimes they fight even without using a stronger armor just for the pleasure of enjoying their colorful character adventuring.
After all this is meant to be a multiplayer online game not a trading platform.

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jesusalva
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Re: ShakeSpear a.k.a DeadZone

Post by jesusalva »

A bit to late for the discussion, but anyway.

ITEMS HAVE NO INHERENT VALUE.
Value is a player-attribute, not an item attribute.
There is no rule that says a towel is worth 10M. The players look and say "I'm willing to pay 10M on this item". Likewise, players look and say "I'm only willing to part with this item for 10M". Or not.

For example. There are WAY more scarab shields and eye patches, than Smiley Caps.
In fact, there are 3x more eyepatches than smiley caps.
Even so, they sell for 2x, 3x the price of the cap.
Why? Offer and Demand.

Another example. Heart of Isis, Banshee Bow, Bull Helmet and Lazurite Robe. They all have exactly the same odds. Why is Heart of Isis more expensive than Lazurite Robe?
It is not because it is harder to obtain, but because it is more "useful". So players are more willing to part with Lazurite Robe than with Heart of Isis.

Saying things like, "Towel is worth 10M" and hoping everyone agrees makes no sense.
If Rubikon looks at his towel and says "there exists about 3x more towels than eyepatches, and 10x more towels than smiley caps. I can buy a Smiley Cap for 5 millions. Therefore, if I sell my towel for 6.5M, I'll be with a 1.5M profit", that is perfectly valid.
(And yes, by comparative statistic, a towel is worth 68 millions, but this only applies if there are people willing to buy and sell for this price)

TL;DR What determines a item price, is the willingness of players to buy and sell it.

AND WITH THIS BEING SAID.
Yall know only equipment and rare items are eligible for merge, and no money, right?
I said and repeated that several times already.
I mean, even in real world, the first thing to lose worth is money. Look at dollar price. Now look at Denari price, which is no longer in use. This is why people buy gold, houses, and other tangible goods.

So, if you see that a rare is being sold below what it should be (IN YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION), you would be wiser buying it (if you can afford it, of course!)

RISK IN HAVING MULTIPLE MANAMARKET ACCOUNTS.
Every once under a blue moon we review ManaMarket sellers and ban alts (without much concern if it have something currently being sold or not, or if it have unclaimed money or not).
Of course, if an alt on MM is banned while it had an item for sale or money to claim, you might not be able to recover it.

Well, you would need a GM help to get the item and/or money back, and I'm not sure how willing to help you they'll be.

We don't review MM sellers and ban accounts there often (we rarely do), but please be aware that breaking rules puts you in this risk. Admins, GMs, and a dozen of highly trusted members are capable of reviewing, detecting and banning multi-accounts.

ABOUT RULE ENFORCEMENT.

Game Masters are meant for game rule enforcement. I've found no game rules about economy so GMs can enforce nothing on it.

GMs and Developers are those whom enforce economy rules.
GMs affect economy by controlling the distribution of rares, DEVs affect economy by setting the prices for the consumables, the drop rates, the NPC purchase price of them, etc.

(Admins affect economy in two ways: By doing events in GMs stead, and by finding exploiters and getting rid of them - or of their exploits - in GMs/DEVs stead. But more often than not they don't.)

Disclaimer of Opinion: This reflects a personal opinion and view over The Mana World, and should not be taken as something expressing a collective TMWT view.

Jesusalva (aka. Jesusaves)
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Rubikon
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Re: ShakeSpear a.k.a DeadZone

Post by Rubikon »

jesusalva wrote: 08 Jun 2020, 15:54

A bit to late for the discussion, but anyway.

ITEMS HAVE NO INHERENT VALUE.
Value is a player-attribute, not an item attribute.
There is no rule that says a towel is worth 10M. The players look and say "I'm willing to pay 10M on this item". Likewise, players look and say "I'm only willing to part with this item for 10M". Or not.

For example. There are WAY more scarab shields and eye patches, than Smiley Caps.
In fact, there are 3x more eyepatches than smiley caps.
Even so, they sell for 2x, 3x the price of the cap.
Why? Offer and Demand.

Another example. Heart of Isis, Banshee Bow, Bull Helmet and Lazurite Robe. They all have exactly the same odds. Why is Heart of Isis more expensive than Lazurite Robe?
It is not because it is harder to obtain, but because it is more "useful". So players are more willing to part with Lazurite Robe than with Heart of Isis.

Saying things like, "Towel is worth 10M" and hoping everyone agrees makes no sense.
If Rubikon looks at his towel and says "there exists about 3x more towels than eyepatches, and 10x more towels than smiley caps. I can buy a Smiley Cap for 5 millions. Therefore, if I sell my towel for 6.5M, I'll be with a 1.5M profit", that is perfectly valid.
(And yes, by comparative statistic, a towel is worth 68 millions, but this only applies if there are people willing to buy and sell for this price)

TL;DR What determines a item price, is the willingness of players to buy and sell it.

AND WITH THIS BEING SAID.
Yall know only equipment and rare items are eligible for merge, and no money, right?
I said and repeated that several times already.
I mean, even in real world, the first thing to lose worth is money. Look at dollar price. Now look at Denari price, which is no longer in use. This is why people buy gold, houses, and other tangible goods.

So, if you see that a rare is being sold below what it should be (IN YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION), you would be wiser buying it (if you can afford it, of course!)

RISK IN HAVING MULTIPLE MANAMARKET ACCOUNTS.
Every once under a blue moon we review ManaMarket sellers and ban alts (without much concern if it have something currently being sold or not, or if it have unclaimed money or not).
Of course, if an alt on MM is banned while it had an item for sale or money to claim, you might not be able to recover it.

Well, you would need a GM help to get the item and/or money back, and I'm not sure how willing to help you they'll be.

We don't review MM sellers and ban accounts there often (we rarely do), but please be aware that breaking rules puts you in this risk. Admins, GMs, and a dozen of highly trusted members are capable of reviewing, detecting and banning multi-accounts.

ABOUT RULE ENFORCEMENT.

Game Masters are meant for game rule enforcement. I've found no game rules about economy so GMs can enforce nothing on it.

GMs and Developers are those whom enforce economy rules.
GMs affect economy by controlling the distribution of rares, DEVs affect economy by setting the prices for the consumables, the drop rates, the NPC purchase price of them, etc.

(Admins affect economy in two ways: By doing events in GMs stead, and by finding exploiters and getting rid of them - or of their exploits - in GMs/DEVs stead. But more often than not they don't.)

Disclaimer of Opinion: This reflects a personal opinion and view over The Mana World, and should not be taken as something expressing a collective TMWT view.

I think in this case, as I said before. With all due respect to all. We need to close this post because everything that needs to be understood is understood. Also now MM has no regulation on prices, but in the future a regulation may be imposed on it. Maybe in the future, there may be a rule not to exceed prices. But now everything is understood by others. I invite the so-called DeadZone to join everyone’s opinion because one person may not have a good opinion and many others may be wrong. I repeat, we are all friends, help each other, with everything you can in your capacity.
Best Regards
Rubikon

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Re: ShakeSpear a.k.a DeadZone

Post by jesusalva »

Yep, pretty sure there's nothing else to discuss here. I just wanted to reply to everyone.
I don't like to keep questions unanswered D:

Would even rename the subject to something less of a personal-attack, but this is the kind of forum moderation which WildX can moderate happily :p :P

Ah yes. "Player Talk" is a loose moderation forum.

As name suggests, Forum Admins/Mods will only intervene if things get ugly, or for routine (eg. splitting topics which wandered into different subjects, moving stuff to off-topic, etc.)

So do not go out screaming at WildX if he doesn't locks the topic, for example :p

Jesusalva (aka. Jesusaves)
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WildX
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Re: ShakeSpear a.k.a DeadZone

Post by WildX »

Welcome to the joys of the free market. Rubikon is doing what we call "competitive pricing".

I'm not a fan of naming and shaming threads. Seems like there were legitimate questions from both sides, so I'll just change the title.

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Rubikon
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Re: ShakeSpear a.k.a DeadZone

Post by Rubikon »

WildX wrote: 09 Jun 2020, 09:52

Welcome to the joys of the free market. Rubikon is doing what we call "competitive pricing".

I'm not a fan of naming and shaming threads. Seems like there were legitimate questions from both sides, so I'll just change the title.

Hello. Yes you can call that competitive pricing.
but as I pointed out before, there is still no rule on MM prices. But if you think MM should have a price adjustment, say so. MM chairpersons can establish the rule of law. But if MM has a free sales price market for each different item, we have nothing more to discuss about it.
Rubikon

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