The official server flamewar topic

[WildX]

See, I still agree with Platyna, I can't help it.

[Hello=)]

t3st3r, you should read again all this thread from start, because all has been exposed many times. Also this is because of your first argument ("The fact I used GPLed program to process photo does not makes this photo GPLed") that Player Data are not public.

They're not public for technical reasons. I attempted to evaluate overall situation: let's assume someone got data as conditions allowed it (which was the case). Who can sue such person and why? I don't see obvious ways to win such lawsuit for Platyna. It looks like you can't apply copyright laws, because host owner is not author. At worst I can imagine that if such data record qualify as IP object, players can try to file lawsuits. However standard internet practice usually involves some "peaceful" attempts to get offending data (i.e. particular record/file/...) removed, especially when it comes to user-generated things. Same results, less efforts. I think nobody can claim full rights on whole dataset (unless it has been explicitly arranged by custom license accepted by all players, which is not a case). So I utterly fail to understand why someone dare to request complete removal. If some server hosts photos created by you and some photos created by me, you surely can ask them to delete your copyrighted data. But you cant ask them to delete my data just because you want to. It's up to me what to do about this. Hence I consider request to remove whole dataset invalid as well. Only author can issue such request. And you see, no any single person can claim that he/she created whole dataset.

TMW-the game is a service just as TMW-the-forum and TMW-the-wiki. There should be terms of service from both services provider (still rather virtual at the moment) and the host that clearly states who owns these data and what are their relations;

You starting to get it. As there was no custom ToS/license accepted by all players I utterly fail to imagine how someone can claim exclusive ownership on such kind of data. That's why I also fail to understand how someone can request whole dataset removal.

and what is their privacy policy (California state requires it for example).

Privacy policy, personal data processing and somesuch are much less coherent than copyright laws around the world. So.. well, if server is in California, they have to obey I guess. If it is not ... hmm, it's ok just don't give it a f...k to Californian laws, isn't it? At very most, users from California should not use such server to prevent their local law violation. However it's not like if it could be effectively enforced if, say, server is located in another country/state so Californian laws don't apply to server owners. Copyright laws are more or less synchronized around the world and that what makes them more or less working: there is no simple way to "workaround" them. Finding jurisdiction which could keep your servers running while jurisdiction still does not recognizes copyright laws could be not-so-easy task.

On other hand, some jurisdictions require it, so basically it's better to have such statements, sure. They also improve perceptions by users as they can know what to expect. Though if server's owner's jurisdiction does not requires it, I don't see how server's owner could be punished for not doing so. It's just not going to work.

TMW-the-project is not a service but an informal moving community . TMW-the-project could claim some "moral ownership" over the player data, though the great majority of accounts were created after the first developers became away from game and inactive but on some little significant mana client development. But if we speak of "moral property" the main client developer could also claim some kind of ownership because this game would be dead now without him... :/.

Moral is an interesting topic. And I would have hard time to tell what is worse: create a copy of server in such ways or post some arrogant claims of exclusive data ownership for community project. Also see some observations below.

But btw. there is also another topic to mention: those who at the end of day can have final words due to purely technical or legal reasons. You can't disregard this topic either. For example, person who owns domain sometimes could have a word. At least it's project name ownership. Should consensus not match domain owner views, project usually suffers some extra damage. But it's not equals to project ownership though. As example of this, you can take a look on nexuiz vs xonotic case. At the end of day it looks like consensus of dev team wins, one way or another. The loss of name could do more damage but it's not fatal. Strong dev team would recover from most situations. On other hand loss of dev team is what effectively kills opensource projects.

Server administrator is not necessarily an author, but some legal entity which makes software running on his own machine or a machine it rents, Player data belongs to this entity. We know who and what Platyna and Platinum are, we know nothing about the actual host and service providers.

And again, the fact your server has processed my photos, does not grants you any rights on these photos automatically. Unless author explicitly grants you some rights by accepting some agreement which arranges it this way. That's how copyright laws are working.

Btw, I made several another observations...
1) Looks like Platyna explicitly refused to delete certain data upon request when devs explicitly requested so. I'm personally finding such appoach nasty and counterproductive. In fact it's self-defeating. You can't expect person which requested data removal to act in friendly and productive ways on your server anyway. So the best thing you can do as server owner is to remove requested data/accounts/etc as long as these were generated by requester. Doing otherwise is likely to switch person to aggro/troll/abusive mode, lol. Furthermore, many kinds of data and code would become outdated/obsoleted ("bit rot"). You can't expect such persons to undertake efforts to prevent it.
2) Platyna talks so much about community, but in fact she played quite rarely last years and is not aware of many things around and/or failed to address some common problems, etc. I can admit that to my taste she exagerrates her role in community. For example I've seen her in game for ~4-5 times only. Since 2009. So I have reasons to think she "somewhat" exagerrates her role in community. Sure, some players like her. And some don't. But she ins't a looking like center of universe. Some people really need to get more realistic. Else they fail to evaluate how they're percepted by others. This often leads to epic fails (like this server move, etc) because it's just troublesome to deal with such people. And then she managed to "hire" some known troublemaker as dev/GM. "Community management fail" x2 bonus awarded.
3) More funny... "original" server isn't even added to client's server list. Probably because "nobody cares". I've got exactly this impression. They talked about ways to be popular on forum. And guess what? They were posting about some lame crap like placing it in links, etc. And nobody bothered self to add server to client's server list. You see, 4144 is a really adequate person, it's really pleasant to deal with him. And he is not involved in move, etc. So I think 3+ months were more than enough to get such idea and achieve server added to list as long as admin is adequate, interested in this and so on. Either nobody cared or they used uber-wrong approaches. And btw, x2 "epic fail" bonus awarded if "community manager" fails to communicate key matters with client developer(s). Server without client is useless, isn't it?

As for me it looks like if "community manager", ahem, needs to "get real" and seriously re-consider some ways of doing things.

[prsm]

I enjoy the game and I still play, i also still enjoy GM'ing.

TMWC seems to be under attack for the not so recent move and the way it was conducted. People have accused of us black mail, theft, dictatorship, being power hungry, and much much more.

I was for the move because it moved the power to the many, not the one! Sorry Platyna, that was not a slight, i now have a voice! I didn't under you and unlike you in the last 2 years i have put in 1000's of hours trying to move the game forward. I get the game because I play the game. Having said that, i don't know it all! I need people to keep me in check, the balance system just works. In the previous system, no one kept Platyna in check! and once again, I am not blaming Platyna.

Platyna named the group under her and promoted them! Than she says they over through her, that is on her. She picked them! She gave them access! If nothing else she needs to accept she made major mistakes (I don't see it has a mistake, but a game correction. Nevertheless, she is not blame free). Leaders that make mistakes have to own them. Good leaders would not have been afk enough to have allowed this! That is just factual. She can say she never got the email about the move, but it was placed on the forums before it happened. We can't make someone read the forums, we can't make someone stop being afk! People that play the game understand what is flawed and what is not.

I will get off my pulpit, and speak out of turn. I speak on behalf of me, and only me. I would welcome Platyna back as an equal, I am far to old to need a supreme leader. The game needs defined rules, not a defined ruler! If that is something she is comfortable with, I am good. If she is not good with that, I am happy with the status quo!

Prsm, i am outta here and my 2 cent rant.

[o11c]

If nothing else she needs to accept she made major mistakes (I don't see it has a mistake, but a game correction. Nevertheless, she is not blame free).

I'm pretty sure Platyna has already said something along the lines of "the only mistake I made in my entire life was giving power to people who would dare to overthrow me instead of grovelling at my feet."
That's not an exact quote (too tired of looking up facts, since they do no good), but it gets the gist of it.

[blackrazor]

I enjoy the game and I still play, i also still enjoy GM'ing.

TMWC seems to be under attack for the not so recent move and the way it was conducted. People have accused of us black mail, theft, dictatorship, being power hungry, and much much more.

I was for the move because it moved the power to the many, not the one! Sorry Platyna, that was not a slight, i now have a voice! I didn't under you and unlike you in the last 2 years i have put in 1000's of hours trying to move the game forward. I get the game because I play the game. Having said that, i don't know it all! I need people to keep me in check, the balance system just works. In the previous system, no one kept Platyna in check! and once again, I am not blaming Platyna.

Platyna named the group under her and promoted them! Than she says they over through her, that is on her. She picked them! She gave them access! If nothing else she needs to accept she made major mistakes (I don't see it has a mistake, but a game correction. Nevertheless, she is not blame free). Leaders that make mistakes have to own them. Good leaders would not have been afk enough to have allowed this! That is just factual. She can say she never got the email about the move, but it was placed on the forums before it happened. We can't make someone read the forums, we can't make someone stop being afk! People that play the game understand what is flawed and what is not.

I will get off my pulpit, and speak out of turn. I speak on behalf of me, and only me. I would welcome Platyna back as an equal, I am far to old to need a supreme leader. The game needs defined rules, not a defined ruler! If that is something she is comfortable with, I am good. If she is not good with that, I am happy with the status quo!

Prsm, i am outta here and my 2 cent rant.

So ... was Platyna the tyrannical super-admin uber-dictator that gave her underlings (everyone else) no power and appreciation, so you all had to fork en masse (and take a copy of her datafiles with you) ?

OR

Was Platyna just merely a host, the move was just a relocation, nothing special to see here, move along please, these are not the droids you're looking for.

Seems you TMWC members should at least try to get your story straight. Pick a version, and try to stick to it.

[prsm]

Hiya BlackRazor

Your inability to read is outstanding, hope this jogs your memories.

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 00#p135900


Prsm

[WildX]

Hiya BlackRazor

Your inability to read is outstanding, hope this jogs your memories.

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 00#p135900


Prsm

Ehm, you can't keep jumping back into the conversation and expect people to simply ignore you. His question wasn't even directed specifically to you, since anyone in the TMWC could answer it, I hope the others don't avoid it as well because I'd like to hear an answer.

[prsm]

Wildx, I didn't answer him for a number of reasons. I stated the first one.
Secondly he worded it with only 2 possible scenarios which is also wrong, and
In my honest opinion trolling ( it's like saying "do you still beat your wife?").

When he asks a real question, worded fairly, I will gladly respond.

Prsm

[Platyna]

This is amusing. Tragic and amusing - what a combo.

Anyway I posted links to threads where Bjorn and Elven clearly states they are going to work on a different project therefore the eA server was inherited by a person next in chain of succession (posted by someone else).

So the case seems now clear who is the owner of the data files you copied.

As I said - I am requesting these files to be returned to Platinum and all offsite copies deleted. About what to do with TMWC - they are free to decide if they want to work for the official server or they just want power - as if I receive back the files that belongs to platinum they are free to work for whathever aspect of TMW they want and I will provide full support, but they will have no special access.

The difference between me and TMWC is that I do not remove people I dislike - I can work with them and provide all support they need to work for the good of the project. Jaxad and Crush are good examples.

I thought that the idea that the good of the project should be above personal issues is a shared idea, but that putsch clearly shows it isn't.

Now is the moment where we are going to find out if it is TMW that is imporant or colored nicks and admin commands.

BTW, it seems that Dimond wants to join TMWO development team.

Now I don't have much time - as I am preparing to my defence, but well, after the defence I will have more time for TMW. Stay tuned.

BTW: prsm, you are eating propaganda like a young pelican, no matter what was the reason, TMWC failed someone's trust and took over the power they didn't need by blackmail and slander of the oldest TMW contributors. How on earth such organization can uphold any ideas of freedom and equality? Also, what a propaganda is that we are all equal? Equal means that all people are the same and they should be treated the same regardless of their needs. It is impossible to conduct. You are not equal to o11c, if you were you would have the same powers as he has. TMWC didn't even solved one issue in transparent and democratic way. They were catched lying several times. The difference between me and TMWC is that they were secretely plotting and blatantly removing persons they simply don't like, they did it once and they can do it again, if you think otherwise then you think like a beaten wife - he beaten me once, but it will be the last time, he will not do it again - she thinks it everytime it happens. Drop the propaganda and start thinking by yourself. It is not like one can be one day a bastard traitor who puts a knife in a back of his collegue and another day he can be a fair and nice guy believing in freedom, democracy and equality.

Regards.

[Wombat]

Platyna, you are delusional. This is for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ

Why don't you go hunt down the people you feel were tricked and try convincing them? I'm certain the only thing you have to offer anyone is psychotic rambling about your fantasy land being stolen from you.

This is our song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHJoj9IqeKg

[Platyna]

Because, colloquially speaking, Bjorn and Elven doesn't care what happens to TMW anymore, they are too lazy to analyze the whole case. Not to mention that they broken the agreement we had many years earlier and they don't even bother to participate in this discussion.

How can you talk with a person who first says is leaving for a differennt project and then is inactive for years and then jumps in and thinks that they can decide what is good for the project after all these years they were inactive.

I would suggest all people who support the good of TMW to write to THEM as private message is not that easy to ignore.

Regards.

[Wombat]

I do support TMW, which is why I am so happy you are now not a part of it. If you didn't DDoS any other server that you felt treaded on your domain, the team would've left earlier. Glad we have someone that can survive your masterful attacks. Get bent.

[prsm]

BTW: prsm, you are eating propaganda like a young pelican, no matter what was the reason, TMWC failed someone's trust and took over the power they didn't need by blackmail and slander of the oldest TMW contributors. How on earth such organization can uphold any ideas of freedom and equality? Also, what a propaganda is that we are all equal? Equal means that all people are the same and they should be treated the same regardless of their needs. It is impossible to conduct. You are not equal to o11c, if you were you would have the same powers as he has. TMWC didn't even solved one issue in transparent and democratic way. They were catched lying several times. The difference between me and TMWC is that they were secretely plotting and blatantly removing persons they simply don't like, they did it once and they can do it again, if you think otherwise then you think like a beaten wife - he beaten me once, but it will be the last time, he will not do it again - she thinks it everytime it happens. Drop the propaganda and start thinking by yourself. It is not like one can be one day a bastard traitor who puts a knife in a back of his collegue and another day he can be a fair and nice guy believing in freedom, democracy and equality.
Regards.

This is why I agreed to the move, ftr.

If you don't think like her, you get insulted and ridiculed.

[blackrazor]

BTW: prsm, you are eating propaganda like a young pelican, no matter what was the reason, TMWC failed someone's trust and took over the power they didn't need by blackmail and slander of the oldest TMW contributors. How on earth such organization can uphold any ideas of freedom and equality? Also, what a propaganda is that we are all equal? Equal means that all people are the same and they should be treated the same regardless of their needs. It is impossible to conduct. You are not equal to o11c, if you were you would have the same powers as he has. TMWC didn't even solved one issue in transparent and democratic way. They were catched lying several times. The difference between me and TMWC is that they were secretely plotting and blatantly removing persons they simply don't like, they did it once and they can do it again, if you think otherwise then you think like a beaten wife - he beaten me once, but it will be the last time, he will not do it again - she thinks it everytime it happens. Drop the propaganda and start thinking by yourself. It is not like one can be one day a bastard traitor who puts a knife in a back of his collegue and another day he can be a fair and nice guy believing in freedom, democracy and equality.
Regards.

This is why I agreed to the move, ftr.

If you don't think like her, you get insulted and ridiculed.

You treat me the same way, or worse. Pot, meet kettle. When the TMWC actually provides something that is better (to those other than themselves and their friends) from what existed previously, and does it with their own datafiles, then that will be truly impressive. Have courage; do the right thing. Return Platyna's property to her, and get on with your lives, without her, if that is what you want.

[prsm]

Actually BlackRazor, if i have hurt your feelings I apologize.

I used strong words because you spoke on my behalf without permission to do so.


Prsm