Dear TMW Community.

[BoomerTheKran]

Platyna, I know it's not what you want, but someone may have had it earlier, or in another topic, when they suggested trying something else. I've been looking at Land Of Fire server's news(on login, it uses manaplus too, and is in the list of servers in m+). They need a new host and are working on a lot of changes to the existing codebase and content. Pets are implemented there as are a long list of other differences from The Mana World. At one point, LoF was intended to go to an entirely different theme, steampunk. I'm not sure if that's still the case. This could be where you and others should be. I'm already playing there sporadically.

[blackrazor]

... my Wielkopolska Voivode Scientific Scholarship, I have won this year

Congratulations on the scholarship, Platyna. Very cool, and I'm sure a lot of hard work, too.

[Platyna]

Platyna, I know it's not what you want, but someone may have had it earlier, or in another topic, when they suggested trying something else. I've been looking at Land Of Fire server's news(on login, it uses manaplus too, and is in the list of servers in m+). They need a new host and are working on a lot of changes to the existing codebase and content. Pets are implemented there as are a long list of other differences from The Mana World. At one point, LoF was intended to go to an entirely different theme, steampunk. I'm not sure if that's still the case. This could be where you and others should be. I'm already playing there sporadically.

Platinum hosts many non-profit initiatives. A person responsible for the project just needs to send an application to root at platinum.linux.pl

Regards.

[Delasia]

Platyna: grats on the scholarship, I am sure it was a product of your hardwork and dedication to your discipline.

So, we will now see if the voice of community matters at all.

If Elven changes the DNS back, I will move TMW to a temporary but separate machine, and on about april/may I will travel to the data center to install a new machine (HP proliant server) and move TMW there.

This isnt meant as an insult, but I think you have overlooked the point of the move.
I know that it has been confirmed that the hardware that WAS hosting TMW was in no way to blame for lag issues.

The issue was YOU, and your dictorial ways of governing. You had final say of all changes, rules, content and events, despite what the majority felt. Your unwavering, inablitiy to compromise, and despite what you feel, your complete lack of trust in the team of developers and GMs.

Even if you move the server, you still have control.
Admit that even if you move the server, you still want full rights and control.....
Even if you say, ok I will be just a player.....you still have the "PLUG" so to speak in your hand, and you have proven that if things dont go the way YOU want, you will go to any length to get it.

Best of luck......

[WildX]

I would like to discuss this:

Make a constitution (most organizations have them) to govern the rules on future changes to data-file access and the impeachment / demotion of top admins (with save-file access), so that you can have orderly lawful transitions in the future, if need be.

instead of throwing a bunch of insults at each other without really solving any problem.
We have already established that absolute power doesn't work anymore.

[Platyna]

It is nonsense, I have divided my absolute power between the GHP years ago. What do o11c did with the power structure I set? Basically nothing except renaming it. He did nothing because he know the division I set was perfect, only problem is that he hadn't absolute power which he now has, and no one will stop him from doing what he wishes, even if this will be not in official spectrum of his role. He abused his powers in the past, he abused, the powers I granted him by doing that take over.

The move was supposed to be for the good of the community, but community expressed clearly - they don't want the move, they want TMW on the machines they paid for instead of virtual host owned by a person they don't even know and that doesn't even want to reveal him/herself, and they don't want impeachments and treasons.

Hear the voice of the community, Elven & Bjorn, and take appropriate actions - show us that the opinion of the community matters, because for now it seems to be ignored.

Blackrazor: I didn't insulted Delasia even once, AFAIR. Not to mention, that if you look on GHP structure - it is nowhere absolute, every person had their responsibility and people having different responsibilities not interfered. Problem started when one person wanted MORE power than he was given, and never answered an important question: why? O11c, Jenalya, Frost: why you, as a content developer want to have power over community, that belongs to GMs and community admin? Do you need it to develop the content? I don't think so.

We had a good and very efficient division of powers. Also community needs an authority - a person known to take over of that community, to be fair, impartial and having high moral standards - none those who did that impeachment fullfills this role. You can make community to be afraid of you but you will never make them to respect you - everyone will remember how you gained powers, and how you were ready to waste a lot of resources to sustain it.

Regards.

[WildX]

Platyna, something was definitely wrong in the structure. Some people are opposing what you called an absolute monarchy, and you should listen to those people as well. The solution, if we get back on Platinum (as many people want), would be some kind of constitutional monarchy.
I do support you, but I can see that what you've been suggesting wouldn't work anymore. There's a division here, and both sides should listen to each other before taking action.

[Platyna]

WildX: the absolute power thing was another nice lie (after lag issue being Platinum specific) that is being used to fool the community, that the take over was something else than putting a powerhungry kid in power.
If you see the so called "TMW comitee" you will see that they basically changed nothing, so the structure I set was good.
I will never agree with accussations that I was a dictator - if you see the rules and structure I set - you will agree.
It is like someone said that a boss or a team leader in the company is a dictator, just because final decision is his.

Dictators gains their power in result of a putsch - by force - and they ignore the voice of people they are supposed to rule. So now we got dictators that pretends that they are not ones.

Constitutional monarchy is what we had in TMW before they came - rules were clear, everything was transparent, "the queen" was responsible fair and impartial. Can you deny that?

Regards.

[blackrazor]

@Platyna

I never said you insulted Delasia or anyone else for that matter. I try to be constructive and productive in my communications. I may, at times, entertain darker private thoughts on various matters, but if it will lead nowhere productive, then I hope I will retain the wisdom and self-control to keep them to myself.

I only want to help, if I can.

It may be that a single strong admin voice can be good, but the TMWC (olde GHP?) has already clearly said that they no longer want that, and they altered the leverage accordingly. Their voice also needs to be heard. I do think that the pendulum has swung too far, with your exclusion from the inner circle and I also feel that your machine and admin skills are still very needed here. But you should also consider that it is different now, and I would suggest you adapt accordingly, for what is best for the game, in the spirit of compromise.

I have no idea what Elven and Bjorn will do. I hope they read the three forum topics that are finally discussing these matters in public.

TMW organization structure - TMW Committee: http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... =1&t=17166

Relocation of the Mana World Services - March 9th 2013: http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... =1&t=17126

Dear TMW Community.: http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 12&t=17129

I would advise against filling their message boxes up with spams about this. I would hope they have the same concerns as all of us, and they will read the public discussions, and come to their own conclusions in their own time. Personally, I have avoided making any demands to anyone. I have avoided any insults and judgements. I have made no personal appeals to anyone's inbox. I hope the public discussion will proceed and I hope that calmer heads will prevail.

I really like not only this game, but for what it stands, often in stark contrast to much of the rest of the worldwide gaming community. The whole Mana project (including Evol and LoF and other older iterations) has been a wonderful experiment in open-source and transparent community-driven MMO gaming. I hope it continues and become even more so, if it can stay true to these original ideals of its founding.

[Platyna]

I have read it, and only change I see is that they gave themselves more power than they had.

Regards.

[blackrazor]

@Platyna

Yes, they have more power now. I guess the workers rebelled against the boss' management style, and gave themselves what they wanted. But what they might not realize, is that they still need that boss, just maybe not in the same capacity exactly as before. That is why I hope everyone will adapt and compromise here, for the good of the community.

What this community always lacked, and still lacks, is an actual constitution that binds even the top-most administrators to a lawful set of actions and consequences. I think that is what both WildX and I have been trying to suggest, as a promising idea for keeping things orderly going forward and avoiding exactly the kind of drama we have all had to endure this past week.

[Ledmitz]

dic·ta·tor
[dik-tey-ter, dik-tey-ter]
noun
1. a person exercising absolute power, especially a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.
2. (in ancient Rome) a person invested with supreme authority during a crisis, the regular magistracy being subordinated to him until the crisis was met.
3. a person who authoritatively prescribes conduct, usage, etc.: a dictator of fashion.
4. a person who dictates, as to a secretary.

[Whistler]

A "putch" is anti-constitutional by essence
and no law can protect us from one. Rules we
know as players were shaken this week, no bots,
multiboxing client extensions, tracking scripts ...
GhP member showing up a side of the backstage,
kind of unfair to us players with no devs means.

The rule behind the "move" of the "committee" is
the separation of power, devs can't be gm.

O11C wants to have gm powers that the GHP will
never give him to save his time for developing or maybe
because he's kind of unpredictable. Chicka Maria
is now a part of the "committee", how could this be ?

They are reasons to reinforce those rules as it's quite
difficult to judge a dev's work as being true, honest
and not copied or hired for. Licensing issues, copyright
problems, to say the least.

Changing of host or administrator is not like a
content update, we players are under its power and by
power i mean electricity. "He" pays the bills and i like
to know who pays for me. Matter of honesty, i don't accept
favors from an unknown why should it be different on line.

[Platyna]

@Whistler: that's my point. The server was moved like 5 days ago and there are already transparency issues.

o11c now has absolute power - he has the power I had 5 years ago and which I voluntarily divided. The whole server move is about that I wanted to divide power between developers and GMs while he wanted this power accumulated in his hands.

There never was anything like "my server my rules" - there was a period of time I left the project due to arguments with Bjorn, and the game was still hosted on Platinum, and I never said - take the files and go away because you don't do like I want. Saying otherwise is pure slander, and I will never allow anyone to put lies about me, especially in public.

The only priviledge I have reserved exclusively for myself was the right to "liberum veto". With two notices:
1. You can count on one hand's fingers how many times I used it during all those years (I can recall only devs being GM case).
2. It wasn't mine-only priviledge in 100% - for example due to GM acceptation if one GHP member oposed then GM candidature was denied.
3. I did it for the good of the community - there has to be a final regulatory body, a highest court that will solve different issues, to prevent chaos and arguments.

Here goes the dictatorship.

Regards.

[blackrazor]

A "putch" is anti-constitutional by essence
and no law can protect us from one.

True, but at least rules (a constitution) could let us know if one had been broken and what the proper consequences should be. Granted it's not perfect, but it would be a start, and it's better than what we have now or have ever had. Right now, we can only guess and suppose and interpret, and this lack of definite structure is exactly what gives both sides legitimacy in their claims and what makes it so hard to agitate for a compromise.

Typically, organizations have rules that govern the changing of the guard, and lawful respectful people follow them. But it's hard to follow laws governing this, when there aren't any. I see this as even more of a problem going forward, especially with this precedent already set. That is part of what has me so concerned regarding the ongoing governance of TMW.

*****
EDIT:

As was previously mentioned, this time an (arbitrary) decision was made to settle it with where-ever Elvenprogrammer decided to point the domain name: themanaworld.org But that was just this time, and is no guarantee for the future.

What if Elven points it elsewhere tomorrow?

What if Elven isn't around next time?

What if the next time, people are content to move the data to a new domain name? (bypassing Elven entirely)

That is why you need rules, so you at least know what should be done in these situations, and what remedies are appropriate to take in the case of a violation of said rules.