The official server flamewar topic

[blackrazor]

Actually BlackRazor, if i have hurt your feelings I apologize.

I used strong words because you spoke on my behalf without permission to do so.


Prsm

It's okay. We're both adults.

But, that's honestly probably how Platyna feels, too. Property that she feels is hers, was taken (copied) without her permission. I know there has been a lot of debate about the specifics, but that is how she feels, regardless. And she is not alone in thinking that she has a point.

Player wipes have been discussed in the past, and if ever there was a perfect time for one, it would be now. To break with the past, to end the flames, to avoid any legal liability (no matter how perceived small).

[WildX]

Actually BlackRazor, if i have hurt your feelings I apologize.

I used strong words because you spoke on my behalf without permission to do so.


Prsm

It's okay. We're both adults.

But, that's honestly probably how Platyna feels, too. Property that she feels is hers, was taken (copied) without her permission. I know there has been a lot of debate about the specifics, but that is how she feels, regardless. And she is not alone in thinking that she has a point.

Player wipes have been discussed in the past, and if ever there was a perfect time for one, it would be now. To break with the past, to end the flames, to avoid any legal liability (no matter how perceived small).

That is the best way to kill off TMW for good.

[Kazenawa]

Player wipes have been discussed in the past, and if ever there was a perfect time for one, it would be now. To break with the past, to end the flames, to avoid any legal liability (no matter how perceived small).

That is the best way to kill off TMW for good.

Yeah, do that and i bet TMW will disappear nearly instantly...

Anyway, players don't care about that ****ing story. Many of them barely know the existence of this forum, or do not care about it.
A player just wants a game which stays alive, providing new content and enjoyment.

From uniquely a player's point of view, you don't care what happens in administration if what's provided is good for you.
Destructing player's save files (without their permission) is the best way to vanish the project i guess... And a game without players can't really be called a game...

[Frost]

Player wipes have been discussed in the past, and if ever there was a perfect time for one, it would be now.

You previously said you don't want your data to be deleted. You can't demand to delete someone else's data but not your own.

[blackrazor]

Player wipes have been discussed in the past, and if ever there was a perfect time for one, it would be now.

You previously said you don't want your data to be deleted. You can't demand to delete someone else's data but not your own.

If there was a player wipe on .org, it would affect me equally as it would everyone else. What I objected to Frost (and you know this very well) was being twice singled out by you for an unsolicited offer of deletion for me alone.

[Wombat]

Player wipes have been discussed in the past, and if ever there was a perfect time for one, it would be now.

You previously said you don't want your data to be deleted. You can't demand to delete someone else's data but not your own.

If there was a player wipe on .org, it would affect me equally as it would everyone else. What I objected to Frost (and you know this very well) was being twice singled out by you for an unsolicited offer of deletion for me alone.

You can request your own data be removed and will get 100% approval for this. Most players seem to like the community that exists and don't want a player wipe as you requested, though you aren't being stopped from trying to convince other players to request their data be wiped. I'm sure if there was a large public outcry for a full player wipe, we'd comply. However, when the idea was brought up in the past, players largely were against the idea.

I support a player wipe if the players are for it. Should we give a player wipe, we'd do it in conjunction with a full re-balance of the game, if possible. There are a lot of balance issues we've avoided due to their unpopularity. So if you'd like to see a player wipe that comes with the honesty of wanting a better game with it, please help us by exposing the merits of how we'd also do a full re-balance with such a wipe.

[blackrazor]

blackrazor: "Player wipes have been discussed in the past, and if ever there was a perfect time for one, it would be now."
You previously said you don't want your data to be deleted. You can't demand to delete someone else's data but not your own.

If there was a player wipe on .org, it would affect me equally as it would everyone else. What I objected to Frost (and you know this very well) was being twice singled out by you for an unsolicited offer of deletion for me alone.

You can request your own data be removed and will get 100% approval for this. Most players seem to like the community that exists and don't want a player wipe as you requested, though you aren't being stopped from trying to convince other players to request their data be wiped. I'm sure if there was a large public outcry for a full player wipe, we'd comply. However, when the idea was brought up in the past, players largely were against the idea.

I support a player wipe if the players are for it. Should we give a player wipe, we'd do it in conjunction with a full re-balance of the game, if possible. There are a lot of balance issues we've avoided due to their unpopularity. So if you'd like to see a player wipe that comes with the honesty of wanting a better game with it, please help us by exposing the merits of how we'd also do a full re-balance with such a wipe.

Well, just look to Ragnarok (on which eAthena is based) for great ideas on balance.

For example:

1) Limited power in armor, and specific to class (in TMW class = current focus).
2) Active skills (none of this awkward chat work-a-around currently used for magic) that multiply off of class (current focus) specific weapons.
3) Enemies with a variety of AI, some range & snipe, some tank, some heal "friendly" monsters, so each class (focus) gets a chance to shine against the enemies for which it is built.
4) All classes get some sort of a ranged active skill, although certainly some classes have a better one than others. This is to prevent one or two ranged classes from kiting the others in PvP. Alternatively, you can have invisibility or "play dead" or "speed walk" skills to close the kiting distance, again see Ragnarok for great ideas on these skills' limits to keep them balanced.
5) All classes get some sort of debuff active skill, for example: stun, poison, curse, sleep, petrify.

The net upshot of all this, is that players would be more fragile, but would have a greater variety of options in their active skills to thrive and stay alive.

[mistergrey]

Ok, I've stopped myself from posting here countless times, but this is getting circular and sad.

blackrazor: In regards to comments you made to Prsm/the TMWC in the previous page: You can hardly expect to be treated pleasantly by the TMWC when a large amount of your posts contain attacks and jabs at the TMWC. You don't even consider that there are a number of people in the group - no, you only see that you have issues against Frost, and a few others, and continue making your 'sly remarks' about our 'meritocratic club' based off of whatever you believe to be wrong with the group. The difference between how you claimed Prsm speaks to you, and how Platyna spoke to her GM team and others is simple - we did not sit there insulting her while naively expecting good results. We asked her to weigh in on big issues, potential rule changes, and often got ignored, or even threatened when she felt we were "changing things behind her back".

I can't describe how many pages of this silly debate I've read, but it all reads the same, and nothing seems to ever satisfy anyone else. At the least hold off on some of the personal attacks, for the sake of your (this is to everybody by the way) credibility. Resorting to petty name calling, passive aggressive snipes at people or groups, and flat out trolling, only makes people take your arguments/statements less seriously, whether there is any real substance to what you say or not.

[Len]

support a player wipe if the players are for it. Should we give a player wipe, we'd do it in conjunction with a full re-balance of the game, if possible. There are a lot of balance issues we've avoided due to their unpopularity. So if you'd like to see a player wipe that comes with the honesty of wanting a better game with it, please help us by exposing the merits of how we'd also do a full re-balance with such a wipe.

Re-balancing the game would be the best thing we could do long term, it is somewhat discouraging that its such a hard sell in this community.

[Quinny]

Just for the record I came in to the game after the move. I have had great fast responses when I had a problem from all lvl's of TMWC. I would also say I personally would be against a player wipe. I may not have been here long but I have worked hard for the things that I have done. Is my 2 cents.

[blackrazor]

Ok, I've stopped myself from posting here countless times, but this is getting circular and sad.

blackrazor: In regards to comments you made to Prsm/the TMWC in the previous page: You can hardly expect to be treated pleasantly by the TMWC when a large amount of your posts contain attacks and jabs at the TMWC. You don't even consider that there are a number of people in the group - no, you only see that you have issues against Frost, and a few others, and continue making your 'sly remarks' about our 'meritocratic club' based off of whatever you believe to be wrong with the group. The difference between how you claimed Prsm speaks to you, and how Platyna spoke to her GM team and others is simple - we did not sit there insulting her while naively expecting good results. We asked her to weigh in on big issues, potential rule changes, and often got ignored, or even threatened when she felt we were "changing things behind her back".

I can't describe how many pages of this silly debate I've read, but it all reads the same, and nothing seems to ever satisfy anyone else. At the least hold off on some of the personal attacks, for the sake of your (this is to everybody by the way) credibility. Resorting to petty name calling, passive aggressive snipes at people or groups, and flat out trolling, only makes people take your arguments/statements less seriously, whether there is any real substance to what you say or not.

I have no expectations to be treated pleasantly. I have expectations to be treated within the rules, especially by game staff. It is harassment for Frost to make an unsolicited offer to delete me, twice:

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... nt#p135920
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... nt#p136116

Freeyorp was honest in acknowledging that it could be seen as a threat:

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... ts#p135940

I have officially complained about it to the TMWC, but nothing was done. Even if members of TMWC don't like me or my point of view, they are supposed to be fair and impartial regarding the rules, and I am supposed to be offered the same protections as your friends.

Regarding the Meritocratic stuff, it started from Len, o11c, and Big Crunch kidding around here:

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... ic#p135223
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... ic#p135224
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... ic#p135226

It's odd how this thread (and others) are full of trolls, insults, jokes, jabs ... but the only ones you seem to notice are mine. So much for impartial and fair.

Look up: IOKIYR

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... id=4425126

I think we have a version of that here: IOKIY-TMWC.org

[Cassy]

I have no expectations to be treated pleasantly. I have expectations to be treated within the rules, especially by game staff.

only makes people take your arguments/statements less seriously

Note the bold marked parts as there is a big difference between being treated pleasently and being taken seriously.
By acting the way Mistergrey discribed it's only a question of time until people only smile at you or think you are a troll.

It is harassment for Frost to make an unsolicited offer to delete me, twice:

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... nt#p135920
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... nt#p136116

No. Frosty said in his very first sentence of the first post you linked:

Are you requesting that we delete your data from themanaworld.org? Please be clear and specific.

And that's a friendly question plus request, nothing more, nothing less.
Note the small but important "please".
Harassment looks different.


I really like Grey's post. He is so right about this part:

can't describe how many pages of this silly debate I've read, but it all reads the same, and nothing seems to ever satisfy anyone else. At the least hold off on some of the personal attacks, for the sake of your (this is to everybody by the way) credibility. Resorting to petty name calling, passive aggressive snipes at people or groups, and flat out trolling, only makes people take your arguments/statements less seriously, whether there is any real substance to what you say or not.

[Hello=)]

If there was a player wipe on .org, it would affect me equally as it would everyone else.

You can request your data removal if you're the entity who created them. It would be logical and could be understood. I guess that's why Frost offered you this option - if you insist on data wipe, it's logical to assume you don't want your data to be handled by this team. However, you can't request, say, my data removal. Because you just wrong entity to do such request. You taking too much on yourself. As player I never authorised you to act or speak on my behalf what to do with my data. I also fail to remember when I assigned exclusive ownership of my data to someone. There was no such agreements accepted by me, ever. So claims of "exclusive" data ownership is just a pure 100% bullsh*t. You can't own what you haven't created. Ha-ha, end of story.

As player I see 2 realistic outcomes:
1) If I'm not happy with someone dealing with my data records -> file complaint and request data removal.
2) If I'm okay with data handling -> no further actions neeeded.

Btw, Platyna proven to be "potentially unfriendly" entity by explicitly refusing to delete data created by requesting entities. Yes, I'm about locking down devs accounts and somesuch. As for me I would qualify such approach as unpleasant and would rather avoid using server where admin is inclined on exclusive ownership of all data.

And IMHO, giving exclusive ownership of all user-generated data to some single person is a really wrong approach for community-based projects.

p.s. also, server-side (eAthena code) devs have inherent access to player data. Either dev can perform his/her duty and then inherently able to access all processed data or it's impossible to put new code, do any debugging and so on, so developent is really screwed up. If someone writes code, this code can do whatever dev wants it to. Say, dumping all player data somewhere, etc. Or whatever. Failure to understand such a basic things is uber-mega-dumb, up to point being laughable.

[SudoPlatypus]

Re-balancing the game would be the best thing we could do long term, it is somewhat discouraging that its such a hard sell in this community.

+1

[o11c]

Re-balancing the game would be the best thing we could do long term, it is somewhat discouraging that its such a hard sell in this community.

+1

With the danger of producing useful content in this thread:

I have a plan for that. TMWA supports multiple char-servers ("worlds") on a single login-server. I'm planning on adding another server for tmwa-adventures, which will only consist of small, well-balanced scenarios. Eventually, we will be to produce a whole new (3rd) world and port most of our existing user-visible content to that, and just stop developing the current world.

The porting is desirable from a testability standpoint anyway ... I have a LOT of work to do before I can make unit tests for our scripts.