Dear TMW Community.

[Rill]

TMWserver generates a datafile, including player saves, which represents the actual instance of the world you are playing in. It is output, but since there is no (separate initial) input file (as with Rosegarden), it has nothing from which to inherit its copyright, therefore the copyright ownership defaults to the person or organization running the server software.

This is an amazingly declarative statement regarding a complex legal matter. Yet you supply no authoritative legal source in support. No codified law, no caselaw, no law review or journal article, no treatise, no reference material whatsoever. Your statement is totally unsubstantiated. As such, it is entirely unpersuasive. Unless you can provide some substantive legal source to support your position, please do not post a response to this comment. Thank you.

P.S. The GPL faq webpage does not qualify as a substantive legal source.

[blackrazor]

TMWserver generates a datafile, including player saves, which represents the actual instance of the world you are playing in. It is output, but since there is no (separate initial) input file (as with Rosegarden), it has nothing from which to inherit its copyright, therefore the copyright ownership defaults to the person or organization running the server software.

This is an amazingly declarative statement regarding a complex legal matter. Yet you supply no authoritative legal source in support. No codified law, no caselaw, no law review or journal article, no treatise, no reference material whatsoever. Your statement is totally unsubstantiated. As such, it is entirely unpersuasive. Unless you can provide some substantive legal source to support your position, please do not post a response to this comment. Thank you.

P.S. The GPL faq webpage does not qualify as a substantive legal source.

"When does a program copyright its output"
http://www.open-chess.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1961

It's a nice discussion, including many references to case law in both the USA and Europe, on the copyright of databases and ordered lists, output by software of various types.

The short answer is yes, a database output can be copyrighted. Even a flat ascii text file containing all the player's information is a database. In the case of a GPL licenced software, the copyright of the output is not by the GPL licence. It's their licence (GPL), so their rules. So Rill, which copyright would you assume to apply to the output, and in whose name would that copyright be? You're saying it doesn't make sense to you that the person actually running the software, and thereby creating the database, is its owner? Especially in the absence of valid competing claims, since the GPL licence on the server software prohibits the software authors from asserting a claim on the output themselves.

[Rill]

TMWserver generates a datafile, including player saves, which represents the actual instance of the world you are playing in. It is output, but since there is no (separate initial) input file (as with Rosegarden), it has nothing from which to inherit its copyright, therefore the copyright ownership defaults to the person or organization running the server software.

This is an amazingly declarative statement regarding a complex legal matter. Yet you supply no authoritative legal source in support. No codified law, no caselaw, no law review or journal article, no treatise, no reference material whatsoever. Your statement is totally unsubstantiated. As such, it is entirely unpersuasive. Unless you can provide some substantive legal source to support your position, please do not post a response to this comment. Thank you.

P.S. The GPL faq webpage does not qualify as a substantive legal source.

"When does a program copyright its output"
http://www.open-chess.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1961

It's a nice discussion, including many references to case law in both the USA and Europe, on the copyright of databases and ordered lists, output by software of various types.

The short answer is yes, a database output can be copyrighted. Even a flat ascii text file containing all the player's information is a database. In the case of a GPL licenced software, the copyright of the output is not by the GPL licence. It's their licence (GPL), so their rules. So Rill, which copyright would you assume to apply to the output, and in whose name would that copyright be? You're saying it doesn't make sense to you that the person actually running the software, and thereby creating the database, is its owner? Especially in the absence of valid competing claims, since the GPL licence on the server software prohibits the software authors from asserting a claim on the output themselves.

With due respect, you have still to provide a specific, on point reference to a substantive legal source to support the claim you have made, i.e., that “copyright ownership defaults to the person or organization running the server software”. Your citing a discussion forum with anonymous posts and a few references to cases that are not on point is hardly dispositive. If you want to be convincing, then every single legal claim that you make should be referenced with specific authoritative legal citations in support of it.

[templarwarrior]

Most likely ownership of files would default to the owner of the dns and the founder of the server itself rather than the owner of the host machine. it makes much more sense and is usually the way open source projects are set up as they never know when theyll need to move. all the evidence weve seen from old players shows that she was chosen as host and as an admin but theres been no evidence presented that tmw ever became her actual property. she volunteered a service just like everyone else. a court of law would likely rule this way.

most of these open source projects arent hosted by the actual server owner as many dont have the machines for it. another example is land of fire which i believe is now hosted under platinum. they went to her because she had faster machines. do you think that means platyna is the owner of LOF now?

[blackrazor]

Most likely ownership of files would default to the owner of the dns and the founder of the server itself rather than the owner of the host machine. it makes much more sense and is usually the way open source projects are set up as they never know when theyll need to move

Not with a GPL license from the Free Software Foundation. Hey, they could have chosen any license, or no license, but they chose that particular one, and it comes with certain terms of use. One of the terms of use of a GPL licensed software, is the software maker has no claim over the output from anyone who uses his software. Inheritance applies, so if the software is, for example, a music editor, then if the source (input) file is copyrighted, then the destination (output) file will have the same copyright. Note also, that some software licenses do claim a copyright on their output; for example, if you use the Google search engine application, they claim copyright over the search results. But then again, the Google search engine isn't licensed under the GPL.

I will maintain, that in the absence of valid competing claims, I own all the program output (original work) on my computer. Examples of valid claims that would make it not mine, are the Google search results and modified copyrighted music in the two examples I gave above. I don't own any of the applications or the operating system (unless I wrote them, but that's not the case), but if I use an application to create an original work, then that original work is mine. That work could be a drawing, or a typed thesis, or an online virtual world.

Keep in mind that TMW is GPL-licensed open source software. Anyone is free to make a world. You, me, the developer, Platyna .. anyone. And each person who makes a world, owns that world as an original work. DNS doesn't matter in determining ownership; just because you point a DNS to a computer, doesn't mean you own whatever original work is on it, especially if it's not your computer.

Now, if the various administrations had actually written a constitution, outlining the ownership and rules of succession, for this particular instance of the output file, that probably would have held legal water. But they didn't.

I've linked to various pages and quotes, some of which, in turn, link to actual relevant court and regulatory rulings, in both USA and Europe, in my previous posts. But I'm not about to write a law thesis, complete with exhaustive research, just to explain my point of view on the forum for a nice casual game. If anyone else is genuinely interested in such scholarly research, they are more than welcome to undertake it upon themselves. I feel I have met "the burden of proof" to a level that would be relevant to the medium at hand, which is an anonymous forum where we are casually sharing ideas, and not necessarily writing our masters thesis or preparing a legal brief to go to court.

EDIT (because I saw you added a good point to your last post):

... another example is land of fire which i believe is now hosted under platinum. they went to her because she had faster machines. do you think that means platyna is the owner of LOF now?

I would hope that the LOF owner made a contract with Platyna, clearly defining the ownership of the data. You know, when you host with a professional company, such things are defined too, and usually the host requires that you claim all ownership and responsibility for whatever you are hosting on their machines. Although, the situation is different for pay-to-play games, and then, often the hosting company will want a cut of the profits, a license, and maybe even some crafty legal tango that amounts to them getting some stake in the ownership of the IP (Intellectual Property), too.

Platyna's relationship with TMW-platinum was very different. She was not just a host. She was administrator, final arbiter, she built the structure for many of the rules that are still in force today, she hosted events, she did some development, she breathed life into the forums and the game, where it would have died off otherwise, and she did this for years, since 2006.

I honestly don't know what a court would rule, I only gave my personal opinion, based on knowledge I obtained to the best of my ability. I do know that she was a lot more than "just a host". I also know that even if people had legitimate reasons why they had trouble getting along with her, that she certainly did not deserve what she got on March 9th, 2013.

[templarwarrior]

and your cases have no bearing here. a server owner isnt the same as a programmer. platyna was chosen as host not as owner. she volunteered her serice and offered the use of a machine. that does not make her owner than anymore you offering to let someone store items in your house makes you owner of those items. guaranteed elven had no intention of his game living and dying at platynas whim. he needed a host machine and she provided one. thats all. platyna is not server founder or owner. just a host. having someone host a game for you does not give them ownership of the save files. if elven had transfered full ownership of the server this would be another story. see platyna isnt the first host. shes the third. ownership logically defaults to server founder (not necesarily programmer) and not the host. a host is a host they have noo legal importance. your cases are about programmers suing founders. not at all comparable

[GARRETTtheGREAT]

Bear in mind that if this becomes a legal complaint, it's going to be filed in Poland, not the USA.

I'm not a lawyer, but since there are no lawyers here, I suppose my opinion is just as valid.

The save data is not covered by the GPL. The GPL version 2.0 is used throughout the source code (version 3.0 can be used if and only if the copyright notice states that future versions can be used, which it does not), and it states (Article 0, Paragraph 2):

Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the Program (independent of having been made by running the Program). Whether that is true depends on what the Program does.

Therefore, the copyright would be held by the authors of the save file. Polish law gives equal rights to all co-authors of a work (Chapter 2, Article 9, Paragraph 1):

1. The coauthors shall enjoy copyright jointly. It shall be presumed that the amounts of shares are equal. Each of the coauthors may claim the amounts of shares to be determined by the court on the basis of his contribution of creative work.

Furthermore (Chapter 2, Article 9, Paragraph 3):

3. The consent of all coauthors shall be required in order to exercise copyright with respect to the whole work. In the event of absence of such consent, each of the coauthors may request a court decision which shall take into account the interests of all the coauthors in its decision.

And (Chapter 1, Article 6, Paragraph 3):

3) the disseminated work shall mean a work which, with a permission of its author, has been made available to the public by any means whatsoever,

Platyna is a co-author of the save data and therefore, is a co-owner of the save data with equal rights as all other co-owners. The law does not state what specifically would constitute authorship, but to saying that she has had no effect on the contents of the files through contributing content, or even just playing, simply isn't true.

References:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/pl:Prawo_ ... e_(ustawa)
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Polish_Co ... ruary_1994

[templarwarrior]

Bear in mind that if this becomes a legal complaint, it's going to be filed in Poland, not the USA.

I'm not a lawyer, but since there are no lawyers here, I suppose my opinion is just as valid.

The save data is not covered by the GPL. The GPL version 2.0 is used throughout the source code (version 3.0 can be used if and only if the copyright notice states that future versions can be used, which it does not), and it states (Article 0, Paragraph 2):

Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the Program (independent of having been made by running the Program). Whether that is true depends on what the Program does.

Therefore, the copyright would be held by the authors of the save file. Polish law gives equal rights to all co-authors of a work (Chapter 2, Article 9, Paragraph 1):

1. The coauthors shall enjoy copyright jointly. It shall be presumed that the amounts of shares are equal. Each of the coauthors may claim the amounts of shares to be determined by the court on the basis of his contribution of creative work.

Furthermore (Chapter 2, Article 9, Paragraph 3):

3. The consent of all coauthors shall be required in order to exercise copyright with respect to the whole work. In the event of absence of such consent, each of the coauthors may request a court decision which shall take into account the interests of all the coauthors in its decision.

And (Chapter 1, Article 6, Paragraph 3):

3) the disseminated work shall mean a work which, with a permission of its author, has been made available to the public by any means whatsoever,

Platyna is a co-author of the save data and therefore, is a co-owner of the save data with equal rights as all other co-owners.

References:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/pl:Prawo_ ... e_(ustawa)
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Polish_Co ... ruary_1994

not sure you can call platyna a co author. only thing she did is provide a machine. she never wrote anything for tmw.

[templarwarrior]

if tmw goews back to platyna it dies. only devs we have are those on tmwc. i wonder if razor has a competing game and is trying to bring this death on. seriously look at all the quests. theyre all written by tmwc

[GARRETTtheGREAT]

not sure you can call platyna a co author. only thing she did is provide a machine. she never wrote anything for tmw.

That would be for the courts to decide. My point is, is it willing to risk the future of the game over what a court system defines an "author?"

If no one is going to put forth any serious effort in rectifying this issue and continue to point fingers and hurl insults, I would guarantee this will go to court.

That means the current server will be seized. That means the current server is not going to be running for a very long time.

if tmw goews back to platyna it dies. only devs we have are those on tmwc. i wonder if razor has a competing game and is trying to bring this death on. seriously look at all the quests. theyre all written by tmwc

The game could die if the save data ends up in legal limbo for years on end. Which matter of death is better?

[blackrazor]

if tmw goews back to platyna it dies. only devs we have are those on tmwc. i wonder if razor has a competing game and is trying to bring this death on. seriously look at all the quests. theyre all written by tmwc

I've played since 2007, I have no competing game, and I care very much about what happens to TMW.

The TMWC only came into existence after March 9th, 2013, and have written basically none of the quests.

Most of the content you see in TMW was written by many talented generations of developers, during the many years, from 2006 to 2013 that Platyna was the administrator of this game. Some of those developers were on the GHP. Some are on the TMWC now. But many are not, and they will develop regardless of who runs the game. History is an excellent guide in this regard.

[templarwarrior]

not sure you can call platyna a co author. only thing she did is provide a machine. she never wrote anything for tmw.

That would be for the courts to decide. My point is, is it willing to risk the future of the game over what a court system defines an "author?"

If no one is going to put forth any serious effort in rectifying this issue and continue to point fingers and hurl insults, I would guarantee this will go to court.

That means the current server will be seized. That means the current server is not going to be running for a very long time.

if tmw goews back to platyna it dies. only devs we have are those on tmwc. i wonder if razor has a competing game and is trying to bring this death on. seriously look at all the quests. theyre all written by tmwc

The game could die if the save data ends up in legal limbo for years on end. Which matter of death is better?

jen and void have been writing virtually all the quests and are on tmwc. so there wouldnt be new quests as platyna has absolutely no qualified devs

[Platyna]

I was a content developer myself, so you are wrong that I never did any work. Yet still this was my account where tmwserver ran, and rules of Platinum says clearly - a user is the owner of account and all the files he generates. So the owner of LoF is Pihro as it is his account.

Regards.

[Bjørn]

I was a content developer myself, so you are wrong that I never did any work. Yet still this was my account where tmwserver ran, and rules of Platinum says clearly - a user is the owner of account and all the files he generates. So the owner of LoF is Pihro as it is his account.

No point in spreading false information. The Mana World was running under a shared 'eathena' account and nobody ever gave you sole ownership of the data stored or generated under that account. The forums and wiki were similarly running from a shared 'tmw' account.

If you are truly convinced you owned this data, then this move could not have been performed early enough. It even means it was a wrong decision to move hosting to platinum in the first place. We should be glad TMW managed to move on regardless and hope it will be more careful to choose its hosting services in the future.

[Platyna]

I was a content developer myself, so you are wrong that I never did any work. Yet still this was my account where tmwserver ran, and rules of Platinum says clearly - a user is the owner of account and all the files he generates. So the owner of LoF is Pihro as it is his account.

No point in spreading false information. The Mana World was running under a shared 'eathena' account and nobody ever gave you sole ownership of the data stored or generated under that account. The forums and wiki were similarly running from a shared 'tmw' account.

If you are truly convinced you owned this data, then this move could not have been performed early enough. It even means it was a wrong decision to move hosting to platinum in the first place. We should be glad TMW managed to move on regardless and hope it will be more careful to choose its hosting services in the future.

You left TMW five years ago and you made a different client and server project. You never was considering to build any community - this is what we argued about, you left it in my hands and left. Now you pop in after five years to "manage" the community you didn't even wanted to created. Interested person may find your old postings.

Regards.