Public Test Server

Content and general development discussion, including quest scripts and server code. TMW Classic is a project comprising the Legacy tmwAthena server & the designated improved engine server based on evolHercules.


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This forum houses many years of development, tracing back to some of the earliest posts that exist on the board.

Its current use is for the continued development of the server and game it has always served: TMW Classic.

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wushin
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Public Test Server

Post by wushin »

You may have noticed One Public Test Server is offline and the Other isn't working properly with the new code.

We should set a new one up. Some of us do, but we have learned many lessons here in The Mana World, so Lets take some Opinions on the process and functionality.

After recent and historical events, I'd think it best if the servers used were hosted under the ownership of the project than any person themselves.

Other than that status quo is acceptable.

Request: Character Copy from live to test is my only suggestion.

Lets get this ball rolling.
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cinderweb
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Re: Public Test Server

Post by cinderweb »

i think the test server should be hosted outside by none of us that way no one person can take the keys to the car so to speak.
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o11c
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Re: Public Test Server

Post by o11c »

I'm planning on setting up a test server on :6902 on the main server, but there are a couple of server patches I really want to get done first.

One of them is already on my github, but untested. Particularly, creating characters both via ladmin and via the client needs testing, as well as anything else related to sex and sex changes (gm and script commands?).
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Re: Public Test Server

Post by Frost »

Before we set up a testing server, let's decide what we want from it.

I suggest:
  • Test problems or situations that happen on the main server. (Production content, production code.)
  • Test new things (content and/or code) before release to the main server.
  • Test things as they are developed. (Bleeding-edge content and/or code.)
The production-equivalent test server will let devs reproduce things from the main server, without having to tinker with the "real" data. For example, if someone reports that their warp towel turned into a piece of fruit, this could be verified on this server. It will also let players experiment with different configurations, stats, or equipment. It could even give new players a taste of what the game can be like as they progress.

The release-test server will let devs and testers bang on things before they're released. It should have things that we think are "good enough" and will let devs quickly make changes in response to bugs. This is not for throwing stuff on the wall to see what sticks. Do that on...

The bleeding-edge test server will let devs experiment with crazy ideas, and programmers try new code. For example, this is where we could see if the new function works as intended, or if it destroys data files. Unfinished code like mob AI could be thrown on here too. On the other hand, I think much of this could be done by people on their own little TMW servers. It doesn't usually take 19 people to figure out that if you try to stack more than 30,000 items together, your character is erased and your hair falls out.

In short, I think we need at least 2 and possibly 3 servers for testing. I think they should have clearly defined purposes, which is something we have not had before (and which led to some power struggles that ultimately harmed TMW.)

I think we should really understand what we mean by "copying accounts" from the main server. Is that a one-time event, to make it easier for people to poke around on the testing server? Is that a regular process, so that game data on the testing server will get replaced by data from the main server once every week or whatever? Would accounts on the testing servers be all linked together, so that if you try some weirdo thing on the pre-release server (say, a new item), that would then affect your production-equivalent testing characters?


I think we should have some policy about what GM commands are available on the testing servers, why, and to whom. I also think we should have some "terms of use" for the testing servers. For example, people have told someone to log into "the new server" and then used GM commands to impress their victim that they are really a GM and should give their login details. On the caliban testing server, I've probably seen it all....

P.S. I think we should also be sure that whatever platform is chosen for the testing server will be supported by TMW. I've seen statements about what the code happens to compile on now, but when you deploy something, you need to plan for the future.
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Quinny
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Re: Public Test Server

Post by Quinny »

I like the idea of 3 tests.
1 would be only for new code (o11c's special place).
2 would be only for new content ( wushins crazy world).
3 Would be where we put it all together and see how the 2 work together (testers worse nightmare).

Also as to what you said about the GM commands could there be some sort of way besides sending a notice on the forums saying you want to be a tester. I mean all I did was send a message on the forums the way tux had posted before but if you hadn't known me from Adam it could have turned out worse. Could we set up some sort of quetionaire about why you want to be a tester ect. It wouldn't need to be as big a thing as the one for GM's of course. As for the testers we already have they should be ok unless a problem should arise and then the commitee could decide about how to handle it as needed.
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Freeyorp101
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Re: Public Test Server

Post by Freeyorp101 »

Try to keep everything constantly and continuously integrated on the one testing server. We don't need another Big Bang Integration day.


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o11c
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Re: Public Test Server

Post by o11c »

Frost wrote:Before we set up a testing server, let's decide what we want from it.

I suggest:
  • Test problems or situations that happen on the main server. (Production content, production code.)
  • Test new things (content and/or code) before release to the main server.
  • Test things as they are developed. (Bleeding-edge content and/or code.)
I think we only need #2, but I do see the use for #1. Usually, however, any such differences between #1 and #2 were noticed when they were added to the repository.

#3 should be done entirely in local installs (such as the sex patch I'm doing right now).

Having more than one public test server will only lead to confusion.
Frost wrote: I think we should really understand what we mean by "copying accounts" from the main server. Is that a one-time event, to make it easier for people to poke around on the testing server? Is that a regular process, so that game data on the testing server will get replaced by data from the main server once every week or whatever? Would accounts on the testing servers be all linked together, so that if you try some weirdo thing on the pre-release server (say, a new item), that would then affect your production-equivalent testing characters?
My plan is continuous copying, but this has permission problems.
Frost wrote:I think we should have some policy about what GM commands are available on the testing servers, why, and to whom. I also think we should have some "terms of use" for the testing servers. For example, people have told someone to log into "the new server" and then used GM commands to impress their victim that they are really a GM and should give their login details. On the caliban testing server, I've probably seen it all....
If, as I recommend, we plan to share the account database, we need something that's compatible with the main server's GM levels. Also, the *eventual* plan is to connect the testing char-server to the main login-server.

In that case, GM commands that are only for "cheating" and don't affect other players will be set to @0, and GM commands needed for maintaining peace will be set to @40.
Frost wrote:P.S. I think we should also be sure that whatever platform is chosen for the testing server will be supported by TMW. I've seen statements about what the code happens to compile on now, but when you deploy something, you need to plan for the future.
Currently, the answer is "the latest release of every major linux distro except RedHat/CentOS". Once the next RedHat release happens (which should be in a few months), that exception will go away. Note that building on Arch will require some hacks, but Arch users are expected to know how to deal with that for billions of other packages already.

Particularly, sometime after Ubuntu 14.04 LTS is released, I will drop support for Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, which currently requires some nasty hacks in the server code. However, unlike the issues that prevent me from supporting RedHat without the hacks I had to do on caliban, the exact time for this *is* negotiable.

That said, if we want to be most similar to the production environment, a test server should be Debian wheezy on amd64. I do my own testing on Debian jessie and my buildbot runs on Ubuntu LTS 12.04, so those are not bad choices either.

One obvious shortcoming of the current support system is that nobody is actually testing on 32-bit x86, but I am confident enough in my code that any errors will be compiler errors, not silent failures at runtime.
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o11c
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Re: Public Test Server

Post by o11c »

I've done most of the setup for this now.

With the new setup you do not need a GM level to use GM commands, instead the commands are available at level 0. This is compatible with the eventual goal of better visibility by attaching to the main login server.

Currently the account database is practically empty, since it's not clear what we want to do about copying characters. Note that if we do *not* actively copy characters over, we will have problems when we hook to the main login server, but that's relatively far in the future.

Can someone explain why they don't want characters copied over? I can understand it would be annoying if the characters were copied over on *every* test server restart, but for an occasional copy, you can just @blvl, restat, and @item.
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o11c
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Re: Public Test Server

Post by o11c »

For lack of any further discussion and annoyance with the current state, I've copied the databases over from the main server. I will not do future syncs unless there is explicit agreement.

To repeat: you do NOT need a GM level to use GM powers with the new setup. However, the most useful testing *is* with the build that you use on the main server.
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Re: Public Test Server

Post by Quinny »

Hey dumbass I use many differnt setups on the main server and I'm sure other people do also. If you want me to test your stuff don't tell me how to set up myself to test. And btw if you keep going like this you wont have anyone to help you test.
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Re: Public Test Server

Post by cinderweb »

I too use many different setups on live depending on what i am doing that day. But thanks for telling me what to do like i'm an idiot. I won't be testing a goddamn thing for you.
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o11c
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Re: Public Test Server

Post by o11c »

Quinny wrote:Hey dumbass I use many differnt setups on the main server and I'm sure other people do also. If you want me to test your stuff don't tell me how to set up myself to test. And btw if you keep going like this you wont have anyone to help you test.
I didn't intend to imply that people have only one setup on the main server. But testing with a build you know will give the best results.

But there have been a *lot* of people complaining "help, I can't test without using a level 99 setup, and i don't have one on the main server", which is 1. easy to do wiht @blvl or the debug NPCs, and 2. not very useful for testing, except maybe for the Illia quest.
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Re: Public Test Server

Post by Quinny »

Where have people said they need a lvl 99 setup? I don't us 99 except once. I change my lvl and stats often both in game and on test.
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Re: Public Test Server

Post by cinderweb »

Just gotta exert your supreme authority over everyone don't you? You are a Duck child o11c a spoiled rotten little child. How many groups have you put yourself in charge of now? All of them?
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Frost
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Re: Public Test Server

Post by Frost »

o11c wrote:For lack of any further discussion
There wasn't a lot of discussion, and you told me on IRC that my ideas wouldn't be considered. Maybe the right people weren't involved.
I sent a PM to the tmwAthena Testers forum group 2 days ago. Was that the first time we contacted them?
and annoyance with the current state,
What is the current state? I see only vague descriptions, without details like purpose of this testing server, rules, roles, and a list of GM commands.
you do NOT need a GM level to use GM powers with the new setup.
Good choice.
However, the most useful testing *is* with the build that you use on the main server.
We don't encourage people to participate by telling them exactly how to test. Frankly, you don't know exactly how to test. This gross arrogance pushes people away, and creates the situation you first noted, where people don't want to get involved.

We keep making the game mistakes: declare what will happen, reject what people say, and then complain when people disagree with the result. TMW can do better than this.
You earn respect by how you live, not by what you demand.
-unknown
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