An Open Letter about TMW Development

Content and general development discussion, including quest scripts and server code. TMW Classic is a project comprising the Legacy tmwAthena server & the designated improved engine server based on evolHercules.


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This forum houses many years of development, tracing back to some of the earliest posts that exist on the board.

Its current use is for the continued development of the server and game it has always served: TMW Classic.

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wushin
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An Open Letter about TMW Development

Post by wushin »

An open response to a number of threads about Art & Content

Maps/Tiles/Tilesets/WorldMap
The old crypt maps were awful... sooo boring.
All my finished work is here.
https://github.com/wushin/tmwa-client-d ... ts-release

This also includes the Underworld Maps.
It was planned, couldn't get enough help to script.

I've also made the Castle Tiles fit Tonori and extended that area
https://github.com/wushin/tmwa-client-d ... i-Town-Wip

But recently I've been reworking old tilesets submitted to fit the game and broke up/changed some
Started working with a simpler templated form to increase the volume of sets and easier mapping.
https://github.com/wushin/tmwa-client-d ... hics/tiles

I've been thinking about tilesets and the structure of them for awhile.

First things that have change possibly since you mapped/arted last:
1) Ground & Over can have more then 1 layer
2) Fringe is for fringe only, it is not another ground layer
3) Wooden Staff & Christmas Tree hat can break fringe/overs
4) Arguing art quality is as simple as no worse than the worst set in game (I'd say a tie between the original cave sets)
5) Animated tiles show up in tiled
6) Animated tiles are getting a new xml set-up (bjorn & 4144 were working on this I believe)
7) Maps are now CSV

As for tiles/tilesets, We don't use near the features we could; Atlas, dynamic tilesets, tmOptimizer, tiled_baker, etc.
A lot of these methods would save us time and space in client-updates.

If you notice under skunkworks I've begun to pull layers apart and put them onto larger development sets.
It has very basic sets with all terrians combined. Why Combine terrains?
Whats Mud? Dirt and Water. Whats the difference between a beach and a desert? water. Whats the difference between a forest and plain? Vegetation quantities.
Throw some pebbles on sand you got gravel, throw some stones on it it's coarse gravel.
Everything in Pixel art is layers, layers and more layers. Whoaa!! Wushin stop, thats a lot of layers.

It is a lot of layers, but we could make a DevMaps and DevTiles folder and compile the client-data maps/ tilesets from that via tmxOptimizer and tiled_baker.
These are scripts available via tiled as suggested other projects. All can be found on github.

One other thing to make mapping easier is to constrain all maps to a standard size and lay them out in a grid pattern. and adjust naming conventions as such.
Thus the upper left corner becomes 001-001-1. Knowing the area of the playing field plus what I already mentioned has enormous benefits.
1) Map edging is far easier (and my skunkworks has a script that already does it)
2) Using a Dev set of simple "placeholder" tiles we can map the unmapped maps with placeholder tiles so when someone wants to map that have a world reference as to what it should generally be composed of.
3) Then we can create minimaps and stitch them all together to form a world map, throw an edge on it bam, Coordinated World Map that directly correlates to the maps contained in the content.
4) The World Map is "set" to some extent and we don't run into the "Tonori Problem" https://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Geography
Note the difference in the Tonori over world map and the Tonori in-game maps.

Sprites/NPCs/Mobs
The player sprite should be finished for more attacks, poses & directions
either the 1.5 or a 2.0
1.5 Player sprite:
- Body, Underpants & Eyes can be dyed
- Races built from layering textures onto base sprite
- Additional Attack frames
- Additional Emote frames
2.0 Player Sprite
- Sprite 1.5 + the diagonals

Replace humanoid NPCs with sprites instead of static images.
This branch has examples of replacing all NPCs with base sprite.
https://github.com/wushin/tmwa-client-d ... sprite-1.5
This helps add a lot of consistency across the game. As the Tulimshar Bizarre is the perfect name for it.

Looking forward this makes:
1) NPCs Variations = # of item sprite combinations & dyes
2) NPCs Animations are as easy as using the player sprite base (Walk, default-attack, etc)
3) Mobs can be made the same way
4) Each Mob/Npc added from new equipment to a humanoid mob automatically create PC Gear
5) NPCs could be fully mobile
6) Racies made as equipment means; Transformation
7) Reduce the number of art request for NPCs
8) Increase the ease of creating a NPC for content
9) Ability to randomly generate NPCs

Script
Currently the server data and scripts are a hodgepodge of different standards from different years.
While there is some discussion to get a firm standard set for style.
The core code for the most part in server data does a lot of neat things, but the variations from script to script really bogs down the newbie and sometimes creates redundant scripts.
The randomness also creates hurdles when trying to do things like a Quest Log or a spell like Clairvoyance
Or even getting the ! ? marks to appear. (see Evol, and sob TMW)
When I look at the scripts I see a framework inside most of them.
Most scripts rely on a core set of similar functions.
The game is heavy grinding because questing gives so little Xp after a while because the quest dry out. Mainly due to the hurdles of quest writing. The biggest I noticed was bitmasking.
https://github.com/themanaworld/tmwa-se ... nuals/xmas
Thats what Xmas was really about. How-to write Script Frameworks in TMW.
As you notice most of what is in Xmas is controlled by a config file and series of functions. The core of the Quest is left interchangeable and the requirements easy to sub in/out or change completely while losing none of the code.
Also hooks are added in so GMs could perform various actions from botcheck.
As it would be fun if GMs could be like the Wizard of Oz.
https://github.com/wushin/tmwa-server-d ... i-Town-Wip
I've made further improvements based on what I learned with the starting tutorial but I'm not done with that script yet. (I'm also not opposed to someone picking it up.)
As the more I looked at it the more quests fell into a few categories:
Gather X, Take X to Y, Cindy/Candor/Rossy Battle, End Game (illia), Mini-game or other.

From what I've learned:
1) Script needs clean up
2) Scripts need a complete framework for questing
3) Base functions can be made for the simpler quest types
4) Adding more Quests offsets the problem with the grind
5) Encourages more levels of experience to help
6) Allows Dialogue to be developed Separately with ease.
Note: If we could use something like https://github.com/tweecode/twine on TMW-Script writers/scripters/collaborators would have an easier time.

Wiki/ContentDisplay/ContentSearch
Currently all the differences in the above code make it harder to dynamically generate information in a human (player, not dev) standpoint.
The scripts used prior were outdated and even after running them and fixing them I was still not satisfied.
Often what is on the wiki falls behind if not directly related to a quest, item thats important to players. Even then what the player see and what the code says confuses them. For Example, XP on the https://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php ... _Reference displays the base XP before the mutations. It's silly we parse it instead of possibly either using a github page and referencing it in on that page or finding a plugin to read the data from git itself and making wiki templates as the items, mobs, etc. will still need a Mythos to them.
The less hand tinkering writers have to spend creating uniform pages the more they can write. It's why it's a shame this page https://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Dev:Main doesn't have a wiki section.

TMW Governance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative
Why we pick anything other than a Co-operative operating style baffles me.
As a Content Dev I'm kinda amazed at how I feel into it. We elect Gms but not the Devs. Lead Positions would need to be filled so I'd say anyone could run for a position and we could let the population vote based on X,Y,Z criteria. Making sure each candidate understands it's a year long commitment and a new election can occur if they abdicate the position.

and the Road goes on and on...
Fix these things and we will have an awesome game. Until then, I'll bump this when we are back at this point again. Where adding new content only increases the number of problems we have later.
As I've said this all before.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17834
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Re: An Open Letter about TMW Development

Post by Nard »

Awesome!

/me remove his hat and bends.

weren't some uncooperative persons you could tempt me to come back.

Remark:
The less hand tinkering writers have to spend creating uniform pages the more they can write. It's why it's a shame this page https://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Dev:Main doesn't have a wiki section.
usually the Dev namespace is reserved to wiki development, especially when the topic of the wiki is another kind of development. The development pages should use the general namespace and be hierarchically categorized. The (documented) categories pages can be thus used as a kind of TOC.
There was a Trello board about the wiki development.
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Re: An Open Letter about TMW Development

Post by Chicka-Maria »

I wouldnt have called the old crypt maps boring, Unfinished yes but not boring.

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Re: An Open Letter about TMW Development

Post by wushin »

Way under finished. I've attached my most recent version with the same tiles improved. I don't fault you Chicka, the tiles were never completed all the way and needed some slight adjustments. Blending of other elements to match the Woodland Inn Set.
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Re: An Open Letter about TMW Development

Post by wushin »

You don't have to work with anyone you don't want to. There is plenty that can be done without interacting with the entire group. The important thing is We have to do it, no single I can, they who is us and therefore We won't stand for it, but we all have to be reasonable and hold people accountable when they say they are going to do something. We will always have our disagreements and we will never be satisfied but doing nothing is worse than doing nothing at all. Collectively, we only has to do a little a day to make progress. If we all quit because someone was a jerk then the jerk gets more control.
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Re: An Open Letter about TMW Development

Post by Freeyorp101 »

wushin wrote:This also includes the Underworld Maps.
It was planned, couldn't get enough help to script.
What needs scripting?


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Re: An Open Letter about TMW Development

Post by wushin »

Freeyorp
the crypts had the start of the Underworld quest.
The quick premise is you must gather 3 items to enter the Realm of the Dead.
A Quill of Binding, Blood Ink and the Underworld Key.
The key opens the door behind which sits a book in which you use the Quill and Ink to write your name in.
Once on the Underworld map you are given one last chance to return. Passing that the only way out is to
A) defeat the reaper and Free the groundskeeper or B) Bargin with Golbenez to be returned.
Once past the barrier you are bound to the Underworld Menhir, towels can't be used.
There were 3 mini-bosses in it to help with grinding.
The Underworld map is a complete city of the undead.
containing a small grind area of higher level mobs and the Reaper fight.
Each of the boss fights has a variation on the boss battles in them.
Including the reaper battle which has a required upkeep during the battle or everyone sustains damage.
It needs Undead NPCs in Areas.
The main quest involves freeing the graveyard grounds keeper of his curse.
In the underworld there are a few side quests.
New Dark Magic to be taught.
A Boss Points Vendor.
New Smithy.
A Chef quest serving food to patrons.
Ends up being 9 new maps, 3 map edits an touches the Graveyard, Woodland, Swamp and Woodland Inn tiles.
Has a thunderstorm effect generated by overlay, particle effects and a couple storms I recorded.
Includes mobs which were never finished and/or added and some new ones made by newer devs.
Has an animated Almebic on a table As I have also been working on a professions branch.
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Re: An Open Letter about TMW Development

Post by pclouds »

wushin wrote:Maps/Tiles/Tilesets/WorldMap
The old crypt maps were awful... sooo boring.
All my finished work is here.
https://github.com/wushin/tmwa-client-d ... ts-release

This also includes the Underworld Maps.
It was planned, couldn't get enough help to script.
So scripting. I guess I'll need to setup a server then learn about scripting. Any wiki pages to get started?
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Re: An Open Letter about TMW Development

Post by veryape »

pclouds wrote: So scripting. I guess I'll need to setup a server then learn about scripting. Any wiki pages to get started?
Sure, there are info on the wiki:
Scripting basics
Scripting standars
Scripting Reference

The guide on how to set up a server is here.

Also feel free to join the irc dev-channel, it is the best way to keep in contact with other devs and ask questions get help fast imo. The channel is called #themanaworld-dev and is located at irc.freenode.net

[url]irc://chat.freenode.net/themanaworld-dev[/url]
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Re: An Open Letter about TMW Development

Post by wushin »

Note: some of the scripting wiki is out of date. If you have problems feel free to post to the forums or PM or join IRC and tell us.
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Re: An Open Letter about TMW Development

Post by wushin »

Edited previous post with giant image.
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Re: An Open Letter about TMW Development

Post by wushin »

We have recently changed our Art/Media guidelines.
Recently we have had trouble with Artists not liking our schema and People posting work that is previously copyrighted or not entitled to use.
Art critiques also go a bit personal so those have been altered as well.

They have been adopted from Wesnoth, a very successful open source game.
The also adopt modern Open Source Standards with media, that being cc-sa-3.
Currently we are still dual licensing as we have old art which the current devs are trying to figure out who did what as that wasn't maintained throughout the years.
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