#tmw-dev wrote:
--- Day changed Fri Oct 28 2011
11:32 < o11c> What are people's thoughts on GPL3? I've checked tmwAthena's history and find no versions specifications except an occasional "GPL2+"
11:33 < Wombat> o11c: I prefer simplicity in our licensing...we currently don't use various licenses and I'd rather keep it that way
11:34 < Wombat> Is there an advantage you like in gpl3?
11:34 < o11c> additional protection, there were unforeseen problems with GPL2 (tivoization ...)
11:36 < o11c> in particular, I have created (not yet pushed) some extremely creative code and I want to maximize its protection
11:36 < o11c> also, GPL3 can be combined with the AGPL
11:37 < o11c> which I highly recommend for any program that is accessed over the network
11:39 < Wombat> bjorn: who controls how we license our work? We can re-license as GPL3 for everything rather than opening a pandora's box on multiple licenses. I agree with o11c that tivoization should be counter-acted by stronger licensing.
11:39 < o11c> Wombat: the problem is, we haven't used copyright assignment or delegation
11:40 < o11c> I know that a lot of the art has been released "under the GPL2"
11:40 < Wombat> all art has
11:40 < bjorn> Wombat: I think so far we have only demanded the art is GPL-compatible, and we've always released the client as "GPLv2 or later", so I think we're also fine with GPLv3 (though I don't see the point in switching).
11:40 < o11c> so you woul have to get permission from every artist
11:40 < Wombat>
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1177
11:40 < Freeyorp> There's a sticky requiring all art uploaded to forums to be implicitly GPL
11:40 < bjorn> Wombat: If we want to do anything else, we have to track down the contributors, or drop their art.
11:40 < Wombat> by submitting art, they agree
11:41 < Freeyorp> Well, they agree to GPL2+, there's no delegation involved if we wanted to change later
11:41 < bjorn> It doesn't seem to mention any version.
11:41 < bjorn> And I think we can be pretty sure nobody will start to claim they "only agreed to version 2".
11:44 < o11c> re: the forums: I know that people *have* attached things that are explicitly not GPL ...
11:45 < o11c> in particular merlin attached one that he mentioned was the bastard child of some incompatible licenses (so it's not legally redistributable at all ...)
11:45 < Wombat> o11c: and he was reemed for it
11:46 < o11c> I suggest adding an explicit note, not just as a forum announcement, but when you register, saying attachments must be GPL2+
11:47 < o11c> and then PM-spam the whole Registered Users group
11:47 < Wombat> only for art meant for the game, sure
11:47 < o11c> I notice that there are no warnings on merlin's forum account ... he earlier claimed ignorance of why he was removed ...
11:48 < o11c> also, this is still up:
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 04#p117104
11:48 < Freeyorp> Not sure what went on there, I think I was away for the incident
11:48 < Wombat> he was removed and isn't allowed on the tmwa developer group
11:48 < Wombat> though I didn't offer a warning via forum tool
11:49 < o11c> anyway, my point is, people don't read, or don't remember, forum announcements
11:49 < Freeyorp> So you would send messages to a group with thousands of members instead?
11:50 < o11c> only once
11:50 < o11c> and add it to
http://forums.themanaworld.org/ucp.php?mode=register
11:50 < o11c> which every subsequent user can't claim they didn't read
11:51 < Wombat> maybe we should request some lawyers volunteer their time to drafting this?
11:54 < Lizandra> mhm, I'll read whatever you decided, could you make it a post on the forum later?
12:01 < Wombat> Kaiser was studying for a law degree last I talked to him. I have some lawyer associates, but they aren't interested in video games
12:01 < Wombat> mainly interested in social justice law, so might not be the best anyway
12:32 < o11c> I think there should be added, at top level, a new, up-to-date COPYING and README
12:32 < o11c> still gpl-2.0.txt or add gpl-3.0.txt ?
12:33 < Wombat> o11c: We should discuss it in the forums before adding...it should be gpl 2 atm, but it seems we might change soon.
12:34 < Wombat> Crush usually has some strong opinions....I wish Jax was around because he was familiar with licensing... Platyna might be able to toss an opinion as well
12:35 < Wombat> Rotonen: maybe also
12:36 < Wombat> I think it will probably happen, though I'd want to make sure objections are addressed before implementation
12:36 < Rotonen> ?
12:36 < o11c> switching to GPL3+ going forward
12:36 < Wombat> we are thinking of moving to gpl3
12:36 < Rotonen> i do have strong opinions, but i do not see how this project has 1) ever listened to me 2) should listen to me after i've not been active for over a year?
12:37 < Rotonen> for art, please contact all the authors to relicense under cc3-by-sa
12:37 < o11c> eh, the reason I don't listen is because you go on about manaserv
12:37 < Wombat> because you are smart and might pose an objection that is reasonable and should be heard?
12:37 < Rotonen> gpl in any format does not do well for art
12:37 < Rotonen> for example it does not reserve the moral rights of an artist
12:37 < o11c> I know, but contact all artists might not be feasible
12:37 < o11c> Rotonen: what moral rights are you talking about?
12:38 < Rotonen> o11c: read the related creative commons articles directly rather than making me copy paste?
12:38 < Rotonen> i do strongly believe in independent background research :>
12:39 < Wombat> So yeah, this would be best discussed on the forums with appropriate hyperlinks to licenses. It is fairly important and I'd feel uncomfortable if we speedily changed license.
12:39 < o11c> Rotonen: I'm not seeing anthing obvious
12:40 < Rotonen> o11c:
http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Frequen ... _rights.3F
12:40 < Rotonen> in the FAQ, first google hit for "creative commons moral rights"
12:40 < o11c> GPL can include an attribution requirement
12:41 < o11c> and an optional prohibition on misrepresenting the origin
12:41 < o11c> See section 7 of GPL3
12:42 < Wombat> does such protection prevent parody?
12:42 < Rotonen> sure, but cc3 is plain outright cleaner for art without any statements you have to make
12:42 < o11c> it's much improved from GPL2
12:42 < Rotonen> cc3 for graphics is clear off the bat without making extra statements or explaining yourself - it's designed for that
12:42 < o11c> but, it's not feasible to contact all authors
12:43 < o11c> "in the manner specified by the author or licensor" is equivalent to what the GPL allows
12:44 < Rotonen> well, then you just have to drop all the pieces of art which do not comply if you change the license or take on the maintainance of the overheady LICENSE file
--- Day changed Wed Dec 07 2011
12:53 < wombat> Well, when we release the demo for tmwa: adventures, it might be possible to more free form fix consistency there since it would start from bare bones with a minimalist/simplistic approach to content development.
12:53 < wombat> It also wouldn't have as many stress issues about bugs since a great deal of it is to help with experimentation.
12:56 < wombat> I think the first release would be an alpha demo for git to begin public development and help with experimentation. It could start with gpl-compatible with a stress on gpl3 for new scripts and link with o11c's experimental tmwa eathena source.
--- Day changed Fri Feb 17 2012
01:29 < bjorn> salmondine, Yubaba: Just to clarify, "free" does not only mean freedom to use it for anything, but also the freedom to study how it works and change it.
01:29 < bjorn> The four essential freedoms are explained here:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
01:29 < bjorn> I'm not saying we can't legally include Yubaba's music, or the music we have already, I'm just saying it's not released in the same spirit as the rest of the project.
01:30 < bjorn> As to what files should be made available for music to offer these four freedoms, I think it's not that hard to answer.
01:30 < bjorn> It's basically whatever you would share with a fellow artist to be able to work together on one piece of music, I guess.
01:31 < bjorn> This includes the melody (sheet music if that's what you're writing), instruments (or the samples if it's digital music), the tracker file when applicable, etc.
01:33 < bjorn> If you don't want to offer others these freedoms, that's your choice. As a project we should however have truly free music as our goal.
03:35 < Ali-G> bjorn: Is there, by editing the musics of TMW, a way to show they are ours?
03:36 < Ali-G> bjorn: Okay... I just downloaded a tool that can edit musics, by giving them for example an author, a title, a license, whatever... Is there something we should modify on TMW musics to make them be under TMW's control or something similar
03:37 < bjorn> Ali-G: Sorry but the music is by each song's respective author.
03:37 < Ali-G> uhm... well nvm then
03:38 < bjorn> And "free" in free software means that is isn't under anybody's control, so watch your language...
11:41 < salmondine> Bjorn so all we need is the key it is written in? that's all I usually have to tell another musician seriously
11:43 < salmondine> if you needed more than that after hearing it, I would probably not hire you again
12:04 < bjorn> salmondine: It really depends. If you're just playing an instrument however you feel like it then I guess that may be the only information necessary, though usually I see people using sheets with notes and stuff.
12:43 < salmondine> bjorn these files for future editing are huge files and usually raw wave files where do you propose we store them?
12:43 < bjorn> salmondine: Hmm, I thought you usually used samples.
12:43 < salmondine> the forum won't handle those
12:44 < salmondine> me I have sound engines and trigger with a roland ready fender start
12:44 < bjorn> salmondine: For wave files there's lossless encoding which I think about halves the size (flac), and platinum still has 100 GB available.
12:44 < bjorn> Well actually it has 1.3 TB available.
12:45 < bjorn> Anyway, I don't see why you couldn't store these tracks as high-bitrate ogg.
12:45 < salmondine> the forum file attachment size has limits and maybe a per user limit
12:45 < bjorn> Once the human ear can't hear the difference anymore, what's the point?
12:45 < bjorn> I wouldn't suggest attaching to forum, no.
12:45 * o11c wonders whether uncompressed files make VCS happy
12:46 < bjorn> Also software like CoolEdit Pro can handle tracks with mp3 just fine, it doesn't require wav.
12:46 < o11c> bjorn: the idea is, every time you convert from ogg, frob, and recompress, you lose a little
12:46 < bjorn> o11c: Yeah why would you do that?
12:46 < o11c> the problem is pretty obvious with jpeg ...
12:46 < salmondine> cool edit pro won't run on debian I own it
12:46 < o11c> < salmondine> bjorn these files for future editing
12:46 < bjorn> salmondine: Yeah, well maybe Audacity is an option.
12:47 < bjorn> o11c: Not for editing those files themselves.
12:47 < bjorn> o11c: They're recording tracks of a song.
12:47 < bjorn> o11c: For the final song, you apply affects, tweak volume, cut parts, etc.
12:47 < salmondine> also most loops are free to use after purchase but not to reproduce in themselves
12:47 < o11c> anyway, whatever, I'll let you guys talk
12:47 < bjorn> o11c: Open source music would need those things not hardcoded into a final "downmixed" song.
12:48 < bjorn> salmondine: Well, then we need to search for free to distribute loops...
12:48 < bjorn> salmondine: Or record our own instruments.
12:49 < salmondine> we would need to compile a sample library then
12:49 < bjorn> Yes, if there aren't already libraries like that out there, similar to opengameart.org.
12:50 < o11c> there are the midi patchfiles ...
12:50 < salmondine> with the final product there is no problem
12:50 < derpella> <someone> i would like to point out that the free software song, sung by stallman himself and hosted on gnu.org, is in ogg with no .wav file as source
12:50 < o11c> fluid-soundfont-g{s,m}
12:51 < o11c> (that's the debian package name)
12:51 < derpella> I was just interested
12:51 < salmondine> me I can't contribute music here under gpl anyway because I have contracts for the next 8 years
12:51 < salmondine> but these are the issues I see
12:52 < bjorn> Btw, distributing truly free music is just the way I think it should be.
12:52 < o11c> derpella: "sung" means it wasn't another source
12:52 < bjorn> I hope it is clear that I'm not saying we can't legally distribute for example CC-BY or CC-BY-SA licensed music.
12:53 < o11c> yeah
12:54 < derpella> <someone> ofc there is another source, the melody is an old bulgarian song
12:54 < derpella> <someone> it is clearly a derived work
12:54 < o11c> btw, wesnoth also does their music under GPL, and don't provide sources
12:54 < o11c> but as a musical tinkerer I'd like to see sources
12:54 < o11c> derpella: that would be public domain
12:56 < bjorn> o11c: Of course, they will be fine even if it's legally questionable, since GPL was meant for source code and doesn't define what the 'sources' should be for music. Argueably you can still edit the final song, but obviously that's not what GPL would have meant.
12:57 < o11c> it says "preferred form for editing"
12:57 < o11c> e.g. for images that quite clearly means a form with layers, not a .png ...
12:57 < bjorn> Right, and the GPLv3 uses more generic wording so that it may apply to non-source code. Not sure about GPLv2.
12:58 < bjorn> Well, seems also quite generic to me.
12:58 < o11c> hm, I need to start the GPL3 discussion ...
12:58 < o11c> GPL2 has some weaknesses I don't want to apply to my new server code
12:59 < o11c> and raise the *possibility* of AGPL ...
12:59 < bjorn> I think AGPL would be a good choice for server, but we should make sure it won't necessarily apply to the content.
13:04 < Meway> speaking of license
13:04 < Meway> whats the deal with the magic file used by tmw
13:05 < bjorn> Meway: The deal with it?
13:06 < bjorn> Meway: This is server configuration.
13:06 < Meway> bjorn: the file used in the server is different
13:07 < PjotrOrial> gplv2 has some weaknesses for servers, since you are not running the code yourself
13:08 < PjotrOrial> so you cannot demand to get those configs, which are gplv2
13:08 < bjorn> Indeed, muhaha.
13:08 < PjotrOrial> that's why gplv3 exists
13:08 < bjorn> No, that's why AGPL exists.
13:08 < Meway> I already have them I was just saying :p
13:21 < salmondine> so eathena is which license? :p
13:22 < BigCrunch> gpl?
13:22 < salmondine> that's the elephant in the room for me
13:23 < BigCrunch> why would it be an issue to have 2 different licenses, one for code & graphics, gpl, and one for music, CC?
13:23 < salmondine> ragnorok stopped suing eathena users I know this much
13:24 < o11c> eA is GPL2+
13:25 < BigCrunch> and if someone says to avoid complications, i'll be forced to shank them
13:26 < Meway> lets not shank people to avoid complications
13:27 < BigCrunch> meway i'll shank you on principle
13:27 < o11c> or just ...
13:27 < BigCrunch> and for shiggles
13:27 < o11c> ninja'ed :/
13:27 < Meway> afk
17:53 < o11c> Well, I posted my thoughts on the GPL2+ vs GPL3+, and the AGPL