Developer Privileges

[Villain]

Could someone please explain the reasons behind giving all/most of the developers additional privileges on the 'production' server?

The argument I routinely receive in response to that question is that devs need the ability to test things in production. Let's pretend for a minute that that is a legitimate reason for all devs having additional privileges on the production server, how often are those privileges being used to test a production server issue?

Is spamming in chat and emote spam part of a production server issue test?

[o11c]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I use/need them relatively frequently. Half the time it also requires SSH access though.

But I think the real reason is not so much that testing nature, but the fact that there are people who have dedicated hours and hours to *adding* to the game, instead of playing it or complaining about everything is wrong with it.

[Nard]

Could someone please explain the reasons behind giving all/most of the developers additional privileges on the 'production' server?

The argument I routinely receive in response to that question is that devs need the ability to test things in production. Let's pretend for a minute that that is a legitimate reason for all devs having additional privileges on the production server, how often are those privileges being used to test a production server issue?

Is spamming in chat and emote spam part of a production server issue test?

According to GM log, never or almost never. Most of developers interventions is broadcast. The last real interventions I can remember were by Jenalya and Pjotr who disabled Lora Tay after the price bug-exploit.

Correction: V0id also watched some variables after Illya sisters release. He also disabled the quest for some time for an issue.

[Hello=)]

Could someone please explain the reasons behind giving all/most of the developers additional privileges on the 'production' server?

Because test servers are nice, but sometimes it's not enough and main server also needs some extra dev attention for debugging, dealing with bugs, etc. I've recently seen some examples during xmas quest (which had some rare and hard to catch but nasty bugs even after some testing). And I've seen some examples before. For example I once found way to crash server. Obviously, devs need ability to attach with debugger to crashing process or there is no useful data. Do you recognize it inherently grants full control over process? Just because it works this way. And I can admit I sometimes crawl through GM logs or grep them to see what GMs are doing, etc. The only really blatant usage of powers I detected so far is Platyna who creating expensive quest items for self. Well, that's in her style for sure. I doubt Platyna can win illia without cheating . Other devs and GMs are usually fairly reasonable on commands usage most of time. Should it be not a case, can you point specific GM log record?

Is spamming in chat and emote spam part of a production server issue test?

(Telepathy mode activated). I think someone should finally update their TIM (and/or other botting crap they use) . This crap fails to understand recent features of default ManaPlus client . I bet what you refer to are just some legitimate protocol messages and every player can send them, regardless of their developer status . Actually, if you're hardcore enough, you can even craft completely custom packets using player commands. It does not takes dev privileges. Though server would disconnect you or completely lose sync if you do it wrong. But what you refer to is probably just some ManaPlus crazy moves + smiles + pets. And your description tells something interesting about code base of client you use. It is not based on recent manaplus. Very interesting observation... .

[Villain]

What I took from the comments:
- The privs are a reward for contributing instead of "complaining" and with the exception of a few are nothing more than a reward (my favorite part of the responses - thanks o11c)
- All devs need the ability to attach debuggers to debug difficult bugs that also exist on the testing server
- All devs do not abuse privs because t3st3r greps logs and thus provides an audit mechanism to ensure abuse is not occurring
- t3st3r knows how all clients handle data/events, even those with less automation/botting ability than 1.4.2.1
- If I was hardcore enough I could craft a custom packet

[Chicka-Maria]

NPC's who have a bug on them have also been removed or moved in the past until they were fixed by devs. Sometimes there are bugs on the server players would like the devs to check where the player is at the time which requires a dev to come see it as well (@warp is helpful in this case or @goto the person who is reporting the issue). @Broadcasting helps when there are new things on the server / test server as well, not everybody checks the forums for new things that need testing.

The list can go on further.

regards,
Chicka

[WildX]

I'm sorry, this may sound like a silly question, but... who cares? If developers *could* need their privileges then they should keep them, if they abuse them then they should be removed. As this is not an abuse report, who cares if devs have a little too many @commands at their disposal? Is it just an attempt to fill the recent lack of complaining (or at least less than usual) on the forums?

[Len]

I’ve always had the philosophy that a game MMOs in particular are for the players, in that the game items should be obtained through game play (grinding, in game event, quests, ect). Any testing of new assets should be done on a separate server; GMs/accounts with command access should not be player accounts (they should be invisible and unable to engage in combat and should strive to have as minimal of an affect on the game as possible). But apparently I’m one of the few who holds such views here.

[Hello=)]

- The privs are a reward for contributing instead of "complaining" and with the exception of a few are nothing more than a reward (my favorite part of the responses - thanks o11c)

Maybe not so bad idea btw. Pros: encourages development . Cons: can hire some abusive morons by mistake . So far it seems to work, more or less. But after some crawling of GM logs, more interesting thing is that there is fairly low level of administrative commands abuse. I think TMW has invented fairly good cure against admin-abuse: GM logs are public and everyone can watch them. I guess it discourages doubtful actions.

- All devs need the ability to attach debuggers to debug difficult bugs that also exist on the testing server

Have you ever attempted to debug fairly large and complex stuff? Bugs are existing on test server. Unfortunately, some bugs can take hours or days of gameplay by many players to appear or they take low-probability and uncommon situations. To begin with, testing server is far less popular. So you can die from age while waiting for certain bugs here . Then sometimes bug is so unique and rare it's hard to pinpoint at all, so every single occurrence counts. Notorious example is xmas chamber lockout bug. Took some days of intense quest running to occur once. I bet such things can go uncaught even if there is large testing team (as in commercial projects), and TMW is far from having large team of full-time testers. Then, obviously, dev needs some special rights to enter area which has locked and not available by standard means. At least to get idea WTF is going in this area, dammit.

- All devs do not abuse privs because t3st3r greps logs and thus provides an audit mechanism to ensure abuse is not occurring

Have I told you it's way too simplistic and barbarian way of trolling?

t3st3r knows how all clients handle data/events, even those with less automation/botting ability than 1.4.2.1

Somehow I do. And since manaplus is default client at this point, if your client is unable to parse manaplus messages, it's probably okay to consider it broken or outdated. So you should update or fix it. And it's really epic to blame some "dev privileges" for this fact .

[o11c]

As this is not an abuse report, who cares

QFT.

If you want to know why we sometimes don't take complaints seriously, this is why. We're sick and tired of people crying wolf; if there ever is a legitimate complaint from those people, it is their own fault that they get ignored.

[Nard]

As this is not an abuse report, who cares

QFT.

If you want to know why we sometimes don't take complaints seriously, this is why. We're sick and tired of people crying wolf; if there ever is a legitimate complaint from those people, it is their own fault that they get ignored.

When people report, you say:

1. You have no proof goto 2
2. you are not a GM goto 3
3. A GM must be present goto 4
4. Report to an administrator goto 5
5. We're sick and tired of people crying wolf goto 1

All TMWC members are perfectly aware of what we are talking about. You know and seem to be pleased with the status quo. You wanted to be the leader, you are now. Do your job.

[tux9th]

There are a few commands which are useful for a developer. I never knew I could disable a NPC though just until now

I often used @who or @whomap or @warp to check on stuff, sometimes @broadcast
e.g.:
Someone pushed a commit to the testing server and I discovered a bug and wasn't sure if this bug was just on the testing server introduced by the one who committed or if this was an error I just never spotted. It is easier to just log onto the main server warp to the location and check than revert git to the latest release and check locally. It's not impossible to do but having @access made my life easier.

I also checked maps for players on the map with @who or @whomap to find out if those maps are used or not. So that I could justify remapping or remodeling access to the map.

Using @broadcast or @localbroadcast was most of the time something players benefited from (like announcements to never give out account data, or events and sorts) but it was definitely overstepping my authority.

Summa summarum you can say that @ access for Devs is not really necessary. I understand Villains complaint and I wouldn't oppose voting on this. Though I have to admit that this is something I would put very far down on our list of problems

regards tux9th

[Cassy]

So far I only care about @broadcast.

Many people don't read the forum and I received *many* questions and feedback after I announced that there is a new map (043-4) on the test server (~15-20 people asked me things).
Our communication is bad enough - I like @broadcast therefore.

[Freeyorp101]

I'll quote myself verbatim here:

The old rationale behind @levels was as follows:
@0 commands (general) should be functions that either change no state or update metadata associated with their own account only. Examples: @date, @time, @email.
@40 commands (junior dev) should be functions that affect your own character only, present no major risk if compromised, and can have no lasting long-term impact on gameplay. Examples: @warp, @hide, @jump, @storage. For a while, @kick was an exception. It was later moved to @60.
@60 commands (GM) should be functions that affect other characters, and are required for moderation, investigation, and enforcement. Examples: @spawn, @charwipe, @invisible, @recall.
@80 commands (senior dev) should be functions that can have a lasting long-term impact on gameplay, and present a major risk if compromised. Examples: @item, @[char]option, @disablenpc.
@99 commands (admin) should be functions that require direct server access to recover from or otherwise drastically impact gameplay, as well as disabled commands including broken commands that should never be used unless you absolutely know what you're doing. Examples: @kickall, @mapexit, @[char]disguise.

For historical context, despite the separation of GM and Dev powers, tmwAthena was only capable of a linear levels system. So while we didn't want GMs to have access to @item (there was an incident where a GM account was compromised and used to spawn many items, some of which I believe I still are circulation - this is why we now have levels of access and precise GM logs rather than everyone being @99), we didn't want devs to have access to @block either. This led to the split of junior dev and senior dev positions, where the senior dev was Crush, and every non-admin developer was a junior dev. Fate and Peavey could also have been senior devs, but abstained in protest at the [@access drama] at the time. The senior developer role as far as I know has never been given to anyone else non-admin. Jaxad and I both used @80 when we wanted to avoid the @99 nick highlight, but this was specifically stepping down from @99.

Later, @50 (Event manager) was added, with some @60 commands moved down to @50. This gave enough access to run events like spawn parties, without access to moderation or enforcement commands. I think this was added after the Delasia incident, but has never been really been used. Examples: @spawn, @invisible.

Hopefully this provides a bit of history and context.


---Freeyorp

[Platyna]

The only really blatant usage of powers I detected so far is Platyna who creating expensive quest items for self. Well, that's in her style for sure. I doubt Platyna can win illia without cheating 8). Other devs and GMs are usually fairly reasonable on commands usage most of time. Should it be not a case, can you point specific GM log record?

What a blatant bullshit. I was always against elite items in game and encouraged developers to implement them in in game for users to use.

Regards.