The official server flamewar topic

Talk about anything, including games and servers not affiliated with The Mana World.
Locked
User avatar
o11c
Knight
Knight
Posts: 2262
Joined: 20 Feb 2011, 22:09
Location: ^ ^

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by o11c » 29 May 2013, 08:16

Nard wrote:You imposed them this license, it is your reponsiblility to make things right.
You falsely imply that I have been I have been with this project forever and was making decisions.

The choice of GPL - for good or for ill - was made by the project's original founders, enforced under Platyna, and then reconsidered by us. Do you not remember that I was one of those who pushed for the possibilty of dual-licensing?
Nard wrote:Saying that CC licence choice is stealing is nothing but laughable.
You apparently can't read. CC is a perfectly fine license for new works. However, taking works that were not licensed under CC and then using them under CC *is* stealing.
Nard wrote:You can think , that I am an idiot, but I am surprised that as a forum moderator you grant yourself the right to say it or to lie about me.
I've never claimed that tact is one of my strong points. I *do* claim: the ability to be truthful, and the ability to step back from non-time-critical situations in which I have a conflict of interest.
Nard wrote: What happens in the case the author's choice is uneffective?
The work can be stolen.
Then that's their problem.

I'm pretty sure that there are some artists who have EXPLICITLY stated that their works are not under CC, only under GPL.
I assume that they read the GPL, particularly the parts that talk about how to apply it to non-software products, and agreed that the particular details of those protections fit them better than CC. For example, CC does not offer patent protection (though I admit I'm not sure just how that would apply to images), and maybe that was something they were passionate about.

--

According to your understanding of copyright law, I could take everything you have ever created (for TMW or otherwise), without your knowledge (or even if you explicitly refused), relicense it under the you-cant-do-anything-all-rights-reserved license, put it all in a book, sell it, make a movie, and sue anyone else using it (including you), all in the name of the greater good.
Former programmer for the TMWA server.
User avatar
Nard
Knight
Knight
Posts: 1113
Joined: 27 Jun 2010, 13:45
Location: France, near Paris

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Nard » 29 May 2013, 08:45

In that case you is obviously not personal but collective: you are a TMW administrator, you are thus personnally responsible of what is written in this forum's headers and in wiki towards licensing.
o11c wrote:Nard wrote:
What happens in the case the author's choice is uneffective?
The work can be stolen.

Then that's their problem.
No, it is TMW's responsibility because TMW imposed it to averyone. I think Authors didn't care that much about the license but more to the spirit. TMW says something like "we want this project to be free and want it to stay free" you have the responsibility to stick to it and make it applicable because you are a TMW administrator.
o11c wrote:Nard wrote:
Saying that CC licence choice is stealing is nothing but laughable.

You apparently can't read. CC is a perfectly fine license for new works. However, taking works that were not licensed under CC and then using them under CC *is* stealing.
If it is good for new, it is good for old, at least as a condition when the first is not applicable, because it fits the global project's and authors intentions.
From Collins dictionary:
Steal: verb
Word forms: steals, stealing, stole, stolen
  1. to take (something) from someone, etc without permission or unlawfully, esp in a secret manner
  2. to obtain surreptitiously
  3. to appropriate (ideas, etc) without acknowledgment, as in plagiarism [...]
I really cannot see how defending artists rights and intentions is a theft in any way. By taking precautions TMW would prevent them instead just as GPL does it for software.
o11c wrote:Nard wrote:
"You can think , that I am an idiot, but I am surprised that as a forum moderator you grant yourself the right to say it or to lie about me."

I've never claimed that tact is one of my strong points. I *do* claim: the ability to be truthful, and the ability to step back from non-time-critical situations in which I have a conflict of interest.
This is far over tact. now you even claim to be truthful on this point. And I have no conflict of interest with you: I am nothing in this project except a tester.
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
Speiros
Novice
Novice
Posts: 122
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 01:42
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Speiros » 29 May 2013, 09:29

Matt wrote:Since this game and its content is open source everyone can create a server.
This is how I understand it. If this is different, then can someone tell me, as I am under the impression that three to four years ago, when I had downloaded the files from gitorious, I was doing something legal, and with support from my fellow manaworld players.

Net or org, I don't care for the fights. I come on here for a game, and chat along with it. What is the reason for such bitterness? Why not just have the two servers running??? There's already about 7 or 8 public ones...surely this should be good reason not to be concerned over it.

As for the development and administration, good job on the parts of everyone involved...this includes new and old, and those on both sides of the fence.

As for the bickering...get over it, and move on. Remember what the reason was that you decided it was a good game...well, I guess my reasons aren't your reasons...still. Move forward, and just enjoy it as a game even. Go and chop into a zombie or something.

The advantage of having the two servers, is you can have your own sets of rules...isn't that wonderful? Why let it be a sour point? Maybe someone needs to touch the mana seed!!!
A.K.A "_speiros_", by a mistake I made...lol
User avatar
Len
Knight
Knight
Posts: 1479
Joined: 05 Feb 2007, 07:17
Location: Lurking in the shadows

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Len » 29 May 2013, 09:41

To be fair we shouldn't have ever accepted any art without a tag placed on it by the author, as that's part of GLP.
GNUArt and the GNU General Public License
Most of the statements contained in the GNU General Public License are obvious and don't need to be commented.
On the other hand, some points, once soundly interpreted, reveal fantastic opportunities if applied to Art :

"This License applies to any program or other work which contains a notice placed by the copyright holder saying it may be distributed under the terms of this General Public License."

Because of this statement, we can apply the GNU General Public License to any (©opyright-able) work provided we mention such application.
Hence the relevance of our choice.
"You may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Program's source code(...)"

The GNU General Public License may be chosen to protect a Work of Art provided its source code is clearly defined. As an abstract notion, this could indeed seem inapropriate to mention the source code of a Work of Art.

"(...) any medium (...)" doesn't mean that :
this source code consists of a description of a textual nature,
this source code is of a visual nature,
this source code could only be interpreted using one of the 5 Senses (or a unique device).
We can call "The Source Code of a Work of Art" any set of data which any other Artist (or specific kind of device available to other Artists) can interpret in order to re-generate the corresponding original Work of Art in order to modify it.

Also, in the GNU Philosophy, "Source Code" especially designates the data actually required to bring changes to the original Work.

As an example, a score or a small text are not enough to indubitably identify a specific version of a song.

Computer Scientists have dealt for a long time with languages such as Perl and Basic in which case the program is considered as its own source code. Such languages are classified as "Interpreted Languages" because they require another program (the "Interpreter") to be executed.
In this case, the source code recipient still has to be specialized in such code in order to understand properly what he intends to modify.

This is not different from Art in any way !

That's why we consider it as relevant to consider a Work of Art as its own source code.

This however doesn't forbid the inclusion of further documentation of the methods used to achieve the final result. This is strongly encouraged.

This especially apply to Conceptual Works in particular as properly understanding its conception is, in this case, mandatory.

Anyway, as a method can't be patented such description will remain associated to the distribution.

A GPL'ed Work of Art may be distributed as part of a "commercial" Catalog or Compilation provided its status along with The GNU General Public License are mentioned.


Sequential distribution, such as radio-broadcasting require a verbal or visual notification of such information before the broadcast. Mention of URLs along with a short description of the GNU/GNUArt philosophy is an acceptable fulfillment of this requirement.

For example :
"You'll now hear the "Free Software Song" originally written and sung by RMS (http://www.stallman.org) remixed by Tompox (http://www.tompox.com). This remix is protected by the GNU General Public License (http://www.gnu.org) and you can find more about such distribution of music on the web site http://gnuart.org...

If you find that such mention is long and boring, we therefore wonder how you can bear the much longer FBI Warnings that appears at the begining of most DVDs. Also, please consider that GPL'ed Art is Free for use.

Such credit is not only fair but also an invaluable retribution for its Author(s) and our organisation.

Of course, redistributing a Free Work of Art, requires the enclosed documents and references originally given by its Creator to remain part of the distribution, either furtherly modificated by another Artist or not.
http://gnuart.org/english/gnugpl.html
Image
Pixel Battalion
User avatar
Freeyorp101
Archivist Prime
Archivist Prime
Posts: 763
Joined: 04 Nov 2008, 10:17
Location: New Zealand

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Freeyorp101 » 29 May 2013, 10:34

The artists never gave TMW maintainers the right to later change the license.

Other projects, [such as Wesnoth], do ask the artists to allow the project maintainers to be able to later license their works under a different open source license. TMW has not, so it can't just declare all existing work as available under CC-BY-SA; it doesn't have the permission to do so, and to do so without permission would infringe upon the artists' rights (something rather different from stealing, though some copyright maximalists would try to spin things otherwise). TMW has to individually ask every for artist's permission, and replace any works for which permission can't be obtained with works that are CC-BY-SA compatible.

TMW is slowly doing so, but it's not something that can be done overnight.


---Freeyorp
(09:58:17) < tux9th> Freeyorp: your sig on the forums is kind of outdated
blackrazor
Novice
Novice
Posts: 332
Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 14:38

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 29 May 2013, 14:14

o11c wrote:
Nard wrote: @o11c:
I pushed the rules yes once and Not repeatedly, but why? If any repetition quote please.
Attempting to bypass a moderator's decision is undisputably a violation of the rules.
Nard wrote:Because especially YOU push them on a regular basis whithout beeing warned. This post is once again a good example of your lie abilities.

I reserve the right to believe that some people are idiots due to their inability to follow a logical argument, and that it is worth ignoring them.
I reserve the right to speak my beliefs.
Which part of this is against the forum rules?
And here we have it in a nutshell. Nard was claiming for himself those same basic rights, to speak his beliefs. All of a sudden, for him alone (in that thread, at that time) it becomes a violation of a moderator's decision for him to perform that basic right that you, o11c, would like to take for granted for yourself. That the moderator is TMWC and o11c is TMWC, and Nard is not, only makes the optics of this even worse. Seems Nard's opinion didn't fit in with the Meritocratic club and so a TMWC moderator sanctioned him, but no one else, claiming that he was derailing the thread, when he was only having his opinion, same as everyone else. And did anyone on the TMWC step in to correct the situation? No. And THAT is why you need an elected top-admin. So that these sorts of unfair situations are no longer defended and so that they can no longer happen.

What was done to Nard by the TMWC was no better than anything the TMWC claimed that Platyna did. I thought we were going for real change, not just a changing of the guard. Well, the sad fact is, that without democracy, the only thing a regime change will ever accomplish is to define who specifically are the regime darlings and who are the regime villains of the day. Not fair.

I call on Elvenprogrammer to point his themanaworld.org domain name NOWHERE, until we have an honest movement towards a democratically nominated and elected top-admin, with set term-lengths and a recall-vote mechanism, so that we can get some true community inclusion and protection.
Sanity
Peon
Peon
Posts: 33
Joined: 21 Oct 2012, 20:08

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Sanity » 29 May 2013, 14:39

blackrazor wrote:And THAT is why you need an elected top-admin.
Awesome. Go and elect a top admin on .net forums :)
Ablu
Novice
Novice
Posts: 281
Joined: 23 Jul 2011, 09:31
Location: Germany

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Ablu » 29 May 2013, 14:43

Nards story has nothing to do with this thread.

Though Nard spammed a Art Thread with a silly "Sourcecode" (well at least not the prefferred medium for doing modifications) of a Image over multiple posts (to fulfil the GPL in his eyes. Then he started ranting about it. The start thread was a thread to start with switching to CC BY SA. So WHY is everyone so obsessed suddenly with flaming about the GPL and the CC license if there actually is work to be able to switch to it? There is no need for beginning to critique a work of others which tries to solve the problem your try to point out. (In short: There was no work to switch to CC BY SA -> nobody complained about the GPL; There is work to switch away from the GPL to CC BY SA -> suddenly people start ranting about the GPL). So Nard was ranting about something which already seems to be in progress for me...

Not really a story about somebody abusing their powers...

But well again. This does not have a lot to do with the server-move. But I guess this thread is already derailed (or was designed to derail in a controllable way).

Regards,
Ablu
User avatar
Jaxad0127
TMW Adviser
TMW Adviser
Posts: 4209
Joined: 01 Nov 2007, 18:35
Location: Internet

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Jaxad0127 » 29 May 2013, 15:01

blackrazor wrote:And here we have it in a nutshell. Nard was claiming for himself those same basic rights, to speak his beliefs. All of a sudden, for him alone (in that thread, at that time) it becomes a violation of a moderator's decision for him to perform that basic right that you, o11c, would like to take for granted for yourself. That the moderator is TMWC and o11c is TMWC, and Nard is not, only makes the optics of this even worse. Seems Nard's opinion didn't fit in with the Meritocratic club and so a TMWC moderator sanctioned him, but no one else, claiming that he was derailing the thread, when he was only having his opinion, same as everyone else. And did anyone on the TMWC step in to correct the situation? No. And THAT is why you need an elected top-admin. So that these sorts of unfair situations are no longer defended and so that they can no longer happen.
o11c isn't TMWC, he is a member of TMWC. The moderator in question here is Crush, though. Crush is not a member of TMWC.
Image
User avatar
Nard
Knight
Knight
Posts: 1113
Joined: 27 Jun 2010, 13:45
Location: France, near Paris

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Nard » 29 May 2013, 15:56

Ablu wrote:Nards story has nothing to do with this thread.

Though Nard spammed a Art Thread with a silly "Sourcecode" (well at least not the prefferred medium for doing modifications) of a Image over multiple posts (to fulfil the GPL in his eyes. Then he started ranting about it. The start thread was a thread to start with switching to CC BY SA. So WHY is everyone so obsessed suddenly with flaming about the GPL and the CC license if there actually is work to be able to switch to it? There is no need for beginning to critique a work of others which tries to solve the problem your try to point out. (In short: There was no work to switch to CC BY SA -> nobody complained about the GPL; There is work to switch away from the GPL to CC BY SA -> suddenly people start ranting about the GPL). So Nard was ranting about something which already seems to be in progress for me...

Not really a story about somebody abusing their powers...

But well again. This does not have a lot to do with the server-move. But I guess this thread is already derailed (or was designed to derail in a controllable way).

Regards,
Ablu
Well, there was abuse when o11c posted a hidden link to nuke me which was also out of topic and left by crush who didn't see it. This post has been removed by Freeyorp since. Crush also removed rightfully a couple of o11c out of topic posts a long with mine that I reported myself. The "code" posts were intentional provocation from my side, that I would have removed myself if I was asked to. The "punishment" came after an additional post I made on the licence topic while crush advised me not to post again on it; and that I understood to be directed to me exclusively. I hoped this affair was closed , but I cannot let anyone say that I broke many times the rules when it was only once and when the person breaks the rules himself.
When I first saw that GPL was imposed to creators in TMW with no possible discussion, I immediately thought that it was nonsense and probably uneffective. but as long as there was no discussion about it and that my first posts on music and opensource showed me that this was a private domain, I forgot about it until the discussion was open...
@Jaxad: Crush is a TMWC Member :)
o11c is not only a TMWC member but an administrator of this server., thus a forum "moderator" too. :|

My problems are not the topic of this thread, in which I had no intention to post because I already said what I had to say at the "move" time. I am also aghast by the lies, unfairness, hate and bad faith that I can see here. If I had seen that when I started to play I would probably have run away...

example:
According to your understanding of copyright law, I could take everything you have ever created (for TMW or otherwise), without your knowledge (or even if you explicitly refused), relicense it under the you-cant-do-anything-all-rights-reserved license, put it all in a book, sell it, make a movie, and sue anyone else using it (including you), all in the name of the greater good.
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
User avatar
Big Crunch
TMW Adviser
TMW Adviser
Posts: 1047
Joined: 16 Dec 2009, 23:52

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Big Crunch » 29 May 2013, 16:05

For the record, o11c is primarily a code developer. He and jenalya are Secundo Admin, where Frost is Primo Admin.

BC
sexy red bearded GM
blackrazor
Novice
Novice
Posts: 332
Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 14:38

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 29 May 2013, 16:15

Ablu wrote:Nards story has nothing to do with this thread.

Not really a story about somebody abusing their powers...

But well again. This does not have a lot to do with the server-move. But I guess this thread is already derailed (or was designed to derail in a controllable way).

Regards,
Ablu
Nard's story has everything to do with this thread. The move brought forth a regime change, as undemocratic as the regime it replaced, serving only to change who were the regime darlings and villains of the day. Nard found himself suddenly on the wrong end of that calculus, his substantial merit no longer considered meritous enough by the new meritocratic definers, and out he went, in a move with the exact same style as what people used to blame about Platyna.

Not a derail, just a specific concrete example of what is being talked about. Without examples, we would be accused of just making stuff up or worrying about things that do not exist.
blackrazor
Novice
Novice
Posts: 332
Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 14:38

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 29 May 2013, 16:26

Jaxad0127 wrote: o11c isn't TMWC, he is a member of TMWC. The moderator in question here is Crush, though. Crush is not a member of TMWC.
Big Crunch wrote:For the record, o11c is primarily a code developer. He and jenalya are Secundo Admin, where Frost is Primo Admin.

Jax, both you and Crush are on the TMWC, as advisors. o11c, Jen, Frost are on the TMWC as senior developers and admins. Lately, some individuals have been shifting around, saying they are in or out as it suits them, and choosing forum tags that don't show their TMWC affiliation, but it is easy enough to look up. The TMWC is the Meritocratic Club that effectively runs TMW for now, for better or for worse. Anything great that happens to the game will be painted on all of them. Likewise, anything not so great that happens to the game will also be painted on all of them. That is the nature of belonging to such an exclusive powerful club.

And saying "he is TMWC" is just shorthand for saying "he is a member of the TMWC", I apologize if that caused any confusion.
Saphron
Newly Registered User
Posts: 5
Joined: 10 Sep 2012, 20:37

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Saphron » 29 May 2013, 19:01

just some things about licensing this particular server i don't understand and would like an explanation, please

there are graphic files which used gpl or gpl2 without +
how do you explain that it's used with server code that's partly gpl2+ and partly gpl3+ ?

i also remember reading that parts of code were just pure gpl2 which is not compatible with gpl3+ and now it seems all shall be gpl2+

also gpl2+ is compatible with gpl3+?


???

p.s. i hope my post won't be used again to close the thread, i found that action very uncool
User avatar
yourmistakes
Warrior
Warrior
Posts: 695
Joined: 05 Dec 2009, 07:08
Location: North Korea
Contact:

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by yourmistakes » 29 May 2013, 20:46

I'M TIRED AND MY FOOT HURTS AND IT IS ALL THE FAULT OF THE TMWC AND PLATYNA
Locked