The official server flamewar topic

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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 28 May 2013, 21:35

Jaxad0127 wrote:
blackrazor wrote:It's not a republic. Republics are defined by having a constitution. I have advocated for such a thing, but to the best of my knowledge, none exists nor has it ever existed.
Since when was that a requirement? A republic is a system where the power lies with their people or their chose representatives. From that TMW is half republic (the GMs).
I was using the term "republic" in the context of how the framers of the US constitution saw it. If you want to get technical about it, a republic is any state where the country is a "public matter" and where the rulers are appointed or elected, but not inherited. So that would include what you had with Platyna, too. But it's a bit too broad a definition to be strictly useful. Modern republics gain their legitimacy from having a constitution, and democratic republics furthermore gain additional legitimacy from universal suffrage (voting).

Voting a LEO-for-life (subject to the approval of a higher body) is not the same as players choosing their representatives. GMs do not represent the players, they enforce the rules of the server. Can you imagine a country doing that for it's leaders? Would you call such a country, in the modern world, a true democracy?
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Len » 28 May 2013, 21:47

We don't need a constitution to make and operate a game, its just more needless complexity on an already complex system. Just talking about tmw in the same way as one would talk about a nation (the Meritocratic Republic of TMW) sounds ridiculous.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 28 May 2013, 21:49

o11c wrote:
Jaxad0127 wrote:
blackrazor wrote:It's not a republic. Republics are defined by having a constitution. I have advocated for such a thing, but to the best of my knowledge, none exists nor has it ever existed.
Since when was that a requirement? A republic is a system where the power lies with their people or their chose representatives. From that TMW is half republic (the GMs).
And the other half meritocracy. As in "people who do useful things", not "people who talk a lot on the forums".

/me dives back into the code.
Meritocracy is great in theory, but rapidly devolves into an elitist aristocracy, since the definition of who has merit tends to self-perpetuate from a select few that will define it for that society. Case in point, Nard did a lot of good work for the project, but apparently not enough merit from the meritocratic definers.

Some other project might define cleaning up the codeblob as not merit unless it produced visible results (like manaplus), while granting much merit to a wiki admin when the wiki makes the game more accessible to a larger casual playerbase. I'm not saying it should be one way, or another, but just to be clear, it is subjective.

As for typing on the forums, if it's about nipples and nachos, then I agree with you. If it's about ideas pertaining to the game or its management, then I think that is very important, even if I might not agree with them. But again, it's subjective.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Big Crunch » 28 May 2013, 21:56

blackrazor wrote: if it's about nipples and nachos, then I agree with you.
I think all things should be about nipples and nachos.

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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by o11c » 28 May 2013, 21:57

blackrazor wrote:Case in point, Nard did a lot of good work for the project, but apparently not enough merit from the meritocratic definers.
Nard certainly did a lot, but not enough to be allowed to repeatedly break the forum rules, and certainly not enough to get The Mana World to break the law, which is what he really wanted in that license dispute.

Do you believe that merit is enough to accept those things?
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Len » 28 May 2013, 21:57

Fine we are the Elitist Aristocracy and somewhat Meritocratic Republic of TMW :lol:
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Big Crunch » 28 May 2013, 21:59

Len wrote:Fine we are the Elitist Aristocracy and somewhat Meritocratic Republic of TMW :lol:
Sorry, but thats not enough of a Title. Too short.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by o11c » 28 May 2013, 22:07

The Elitist Aristocracy of Minions of o11c, which he brainwashed against their own will and the will of the diety, Platyna, and formed into a somewhat Meritocratic Republic of TMW?
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 28 May 2013, 23:07

o11c wrote:
blackrazor wrote:Case in point, Nard did a lot of good work for the project, but apparently not enough merit from the meritocratic definers.
Nard certainly did a lot, but not enough to be allowed to repeatedly break the forum rules, and certainly not enough to get The Mana World to break the law, which is what he really wanted in that license dispute.

Do you believe that merit is enough to accept those things?
He pushed the forum rules, certainly others pushed too, and they were untouched. Maybe they had more merit?

I understand the legal implications, and for that reason I did not agree with the position Nard took. But I did agree with his right to see it his way and to push his point of view. No one said that Nard needed to get his way on actual licencing, only that he needed to be heard.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Big Crunch » 29 May 2013, 04:09

Freeyorp101 wrote:There are [many] [old] [threads] about organisation of things which could be locked and make publically visible so people can review for themselves. I suggest they're opened up soon, as the lack of accessible information is stifling.

I'm not sure why the first is in the parking lot, as it never seems to have devolved. It's quite useful, as it contains some information+screenshot about the state of the project from before I joined it that a few people keep referring to.

The latter two are very useful, as they come from late 2009 and are the closest I've found to a complete and reasonably recent description of organisational structure. They take the manasource split and departures into account, and the then whole team agreed to that structure.
To my knowledge from then: Elven never ceded sovereignty. Jaxad passed on eathena service management to me, then later I to Frost. Rotonen appointed Wombat as content leader for tmwAthena, which was passed on to Pjotr, then to Jenalya. No one was brave enough to lead tmwAthena source before o11c, so it spontaneously came into existence with the blessing of everyone that wanted to see the codeblob that was tmwAthena made into something sane.


When things cool down a bit, perhaps we could all construct an objective (and free from insults like "egomaniacal dictator" or "power hungry abusers") timeline of events, and sort through things without being scorched by the flames?


---Freeyorp
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Nard » 29 May 2013, 07:13

o11c wrote:Nard certainly did a lot, but not enough to be allowed to repeatedly break the forum rules, and certainly not enough to get The Mana World to break the law, which is what he really wanted in that license dispute.

Do you believe that merit is enough to accept those things?
@o11c:
I pushed the rules yes once and Not repeatedly, but why? If any repetition quote please.
Because especially YOU push them on a regular basis whithout beeing warned. This post is once again a good example of your lie abilities.
Did I want this license dispute?
Surely no! My only intention even on that topic is to make TMW realize that t GPL choice toward art is a wrong one. I do not change a single word of what I said about it:
  • For example releasing an ogg file under GPL is simply nonsense because: It is definitely not a source even under GPL definition. No serious musician (which is obviously not your case) would consider ogg as their "preferred form" of making music. (I could also take example of a photographer, a dancer...)
  • Any artistic work, including pixel art, has a existance outside a computer, even with law, software has not by obvious nature and even if this frustrates you.
  • GPL does not take any account of restrictions that laws grant to artistic works and even consider them as opposed to their concept of "freedom" In my opinion this can make GPL uneffective. And, especially in USA, when a point of a text is uneffective the whole text is often uneffective. Fortunately there are laws outside GPL that could take the relay.
  • Dual Licensing two licenses that both say they are incompatible (OSI does not consider CC is not "open source" because source has no meaning towards art), and without any precision, is the worst possible choice.
Did I ask for a special treatment?
No

Do you believe that your merit is enough for us to accept your attitude?
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by o11c » 29 May 2013, 07:24

Nard wrote: @o11c:
I pushed the rules yes once and Not repeatedly, but why? If any repetition quote please.
Attempting to bypass a moderator's decision is undisputably a violation of the rules.
Nard wrote:Because especially YOU push them on a regular basis whithout beeing warned. This post is once again a good example of your lie abilities.

I reserve the right to believe that some people are idiots due to their inability to follow a logical argument, and that it is worth ignoring them.
I reserve the right to speak my beliefs.
Which part of this is against the forum rules?
Nard wrote: Surely no! My only intention even on that topic is to make TMW realize that t GPL choice toward art is a wrong one. I do not change a single word of what I said about it:
<snip>
Do you still not understand that none of this matters at all?

We have a HUGE body of art that people have released to us ONLY under the GPL. We simple CANNOT arbitrarily relicense that. THAT IS STEALING and The Mana World is NOT going to steal.

Well, I guess the alternative would be to simply delete all of our existing content and start making again. How do you think players would like that?

Later Edit: According to license.txt, we only have 256 pieces of art also available under CC, out of 874 pieces we are currently using under GPL. And there's no guarantee that those 256 pieces can be used to form a whole.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Nard » 29 May 2013, 07:42

o11c wrote:
Nard wrote: @o11c:
I pushed the rules yes once and Not repeatedly, but why? If any repetition quote please.
Because especially YOU push them on a regular basis whithout beeing warned. This post is once again a good example of your lie abilities.

I reserve the right to believe that some people are idiots due to their inability to follow a logical argument, and that it is worth ignoring them.
I reserve the right to speak my beliefs.
Which part of this is against the forum rules?
Nard wrote: Surely no! My only intention even on that topic is to make TMW realize that t GPL choice toward art is a wrong one. I do not change a single word of what I said about it:
<snip>
Do you still not understand that none of this matters at all?

We have a HUGE body of art that people have released to us ONLY under the GPL. We simple CANNOT arbitrarily relicense that. THAT IS STEALING and The Mana World is NOT going to steal.
You imposed them this license, it is your reponsiblility to make things right. Changing from an uneffective licence to another one which respect artist's rights is not only the only way to be fair, but also a duty to make the project fit it's original goal and spirit. Saying that CC licence choice is stealing is nothing but laughable. Also I never said that GPL should not be quoted as original license my opinion is that there should be a disclaimer saying that in case GPL in incompatible with laws, then CC should apply. CC doesnt proceeed differently.

You can think , that I am an idiot, but I am surprised that as a forum moderator you grant yourself the right to say it or to lie about me.
And I could return you the compliment: read licenses and I think you should be intelligent and logic enough to understand what is the difference between art and software, if dictionary is not sufficient.
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Len » 29 May 2013, 07:49

Nard wrote: You imposed them this license, it is your reponsiblility to make things right. Changing from an uneffective licence to another one which respect artist's rights is not only the only way to be fair.
Only the creator of a work can license or change said license on that work.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Nard » 29 May 2013, 07:59

Len wrote:Only the creator of a work can license or change said license on that work.
What happens in the case the author's choice is uneffective?
The work can be stolen.

I have at least in mind one precise case where it happened: A french singer made a song for a foreign TV anime series. The french producer didn't respect exactly the rules for such changes. The japanese producer attacked the arrangement and won the trial. Both Japanese and french producer got the royalties from TV, The artist got nothing.

Edit: It is also for the reason that you expose, that I suggested that Ali's license file should be updated with first author as first in the list.
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
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