An invite from Libre Gaming Wiki

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jesusalva
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An invite from Libre Gaming Wiki

Post by jesusalva »

LibreGaming Wiki is one of the wikis which hold information about FLOSS games (like TMW, you can see our wiki entry here). They have a strict moderation team to ensure only FLOSS games makes to the wiki (strict to the point of marking SuperTuxKart as "considered for deletion").

Their community, which include several FLOSS developers and contributors to the FLOSS gaming ecosystem, will be doing a meeting on Mumble at 2022-01-30, 20:00 UTC, under
hribhrib.at
server.

Their meeting agenda would be:
  • General review of last 6 months, what is/isn't working for libregaming.org?
  • Chat channels: privacy, moderation, working groups, on-topic
  • Service (de)centralisation
  • provide a place and encouragement for devs to interact (freegamedev.net?)
  • general goals and level of ambition, as well as how \"growth\" oriented/cohesive
  • collaborative focus day with a shared todo list
Everyone is invited. Bring your friends, cats and pious!

DISCLAIMER:
The Mana World and Libre Gaming are not affiliated.

They define what a libre game is on their git repositories. Keep in mind that while The Mana World falls under described (and follows the four freedoms: The game itself is libre and open source, and will always be), we never claimed to be focused on being part of the FLOSS ecosystem or to agree with the full FSF philosophy - we may use proprietary or open source tools on our development ecosystem, like Discord and Transifex. Not to mention that our servers are currently running on Microsoft Azure.

This has caused conflicts before, and even multiple times.

You can find an official (consensus-based) statement from Reid. The short version is:
We want to make a Open Source 2D MMORPG. While game itself is FLOSS, the ecosystem may use non-libre tools, and you're free to not use them if you don't want to. You're not required to use non-libre tools even if they're official. But the project itself will generally not prevent any dev or contributor from using whatever tool they find that's more adequate.
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Re: An invite from Libre Gaming Wiki

Post by Hello=) »

It sounds very interesting. To say the least.

I wonder if something like this can take place on IRC? Sorry, I dont use mumble, nor my network setup tailored for that, and in the end I'm way more comfortable about IRC and text chats I guess. I absolutely hate voice/video calls and conferences, and mumble apparently more of that rather than IM/chat. So if it's in mumble, I'd skip that fun. But I guess like that both sides would miss a lot of interesting stuff. Can it be arranged like that?

* I have something to say about decentralisation. I'm to try some really unexplored grounds - and believe it can be interesting.
* I have something to say about chats-n-channels, moderation and so on. Interestingly and unexpectedly it interleaved with former.
* Few ideas around of this ... were called "revolutionary" by some devs. When it comes from devs like this I like it and believe I'll go there, code that, but that going to push my coding skills to limit. Guess some help wouldn't hurt - and I wonder if these got what I'm looking for. Maybe similar minds got similar skills, why not?

p.s. and ye, now TMW is both overlycentralized (I believe some things going to aggravate it further, eg vault/2fa/sso/tls/one account/etc) - and with all these discords and somesuch it IMO not exactly dream-team for opensourcers to be. Guess if it wasn't TMW2009 I woudln't have been here at all.
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Re: An invite from Libre Gaming Wiki

Post by Livio »

jesusalva wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 17:21 You're not required to use non-libre tools even if they're official.
If non-libre tools are official then project can't be considered free software (just look why Debian project isn't considered free as well).
Hello=) wrote: 24 Jan 2022, 15:39 I wonder if something like this can take place on IRC? Sorry, I dont use mumble, nor my network setup tailored for that, and in the end I'm way more comfortable about IRC and text chats I guess. I absolutely hate voice/video calls and conferences, and mumble apparently more of that rather than IM/chat. So if it's in mumble, I'd skip that fun. But I guess like that both sides would miss a lot of interesting stuff. Can it be arranged like that?
Mumble still have a text chat. If they don't kick you for being silent you can try use that.
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Re: An invite from Libre Gaming Wiki

Post by jesusalva »

Livio wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 22:27
jesusalva wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 17:21 You're not required to use non-libre tools even if they're official.
If non-libre tools are official then project can't be considered free software (just look why Debian project isn't considered free as well).
DISCLAIMER: Personal opinion.

Project-wise, TMW is not free and that was never a goal, except maybe during Platyna's years.
The quote from the Constitution is as old as the file itself, dating back to 2013, btw.
Doesn't means we always used non-free tools, we do tend to prefer FLOSS tools if we can help ourselves.

Otherwise, TMW is a FLOSS game, running a FLOSS engine, and which you can connect with a FLOSS client and play. In other words, it adheres to the four basic freedoms and go no further.

Did I ever tell how much I hate people whom want to limit me to live in a FLOSS bubble? Software is a tool, I am free and I want my software to be free so it can further my freedom. But I would not be willing to sacrifice my own freedoms for my tools.
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Re: An invite from Libre Gaming Wiki

Post by Hocus Pocus Fidibus »

jesusalva wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 22:57 Did I ever tell how much I hate people whom want to limit me to live in a FLOSS bubble? Software is a tool, I am free and I want my software to be free so it can further my freedom. But I would not be willing to sacrifice my own freedoms for my tools.
Nods, nicely said
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Re: An invite from Libre Gaming Wiki

Post by Livio »

jesusalva wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 22:57 DISCLAIMER: Personal opinion.
Mine as well.
jesusalva wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 22:57 Project-wise, TMW is not free and that was never a goal, except maybe during Platyna's years.
I don't know Platyna but many remember her as a pain in somewhere...
I don't know how that can be related to this topic.
jesusalva wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 22:57 The quote from the Constitution is as old as the file itself, dating back to 2013, btw.
Doesn't means we always used non-free tools, we do tend to prefer FLOSS tools if we can help ourselves.
What's actually missing from FLOSS tools?
jesusalva wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 22:57 Otherwise, TMW is a FLOSS game, running a FLOSS engine, and which you can connect with a FLOSS client and play. In other words, it adheres to the four basic freedoms and go no further.
Aren't the IRC/Discord bridges officially related to TMW?
jesusalva wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 22:57 Did I ever tell how much I hate people whom want to limit me to live in a FLOSS bubble?

A FLOSS bubble? What makes you think people is able to "limit" you with free software?
The concept of "bubbling" is better explained by taking big G's search engine's crap. Or expensive iCrap and their "stores"...
jesusalva wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 22:57 Software is a tool, I am free and I want my software to be free so it can further my freedom. But I would not be willing to sacrifice my own freedoms for my tools.
None here is asking you to go to pray in the Church of EMACS. RMS condemns Jesus' dad for making the world and not releasing its sources, probably because when one has the sources and the other just the binaries is hard to predict dev's intention. So software can be a tool but in someone else's hand. I doubt anyone can consider himself "free" by not using free software even on free hardware.
jesusalva wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 22:57 Project-wise, TMW is not free and that was never a goal, except maybe during Platyna's years.
I doubt TMW may succeed into Libre Gaming Wiki or at least be coherent in the "free as freedom" concept.
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Re: An invite from Libre Gaming Wiki

Post by Hocus Pocus Fidibus »

Demanding devs to just use free software is limiting there tools, that is (for me) the point. I have and use some graphic software that is not free and although i prefer to do what i do in free software i would not exclude using software i paid for from time to time, even for this project. I build sprites, i offer them MIT licensed... how i made them is my business as long as i did nothing illegal imho. (And being lectured about this topic over and over again without being asked gets boring fast^^).
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Re: An invite from Libre Gaming Wiki

Post by jesusalva »

This is not an official statement.
Livio wrote: 29 Jan 2022, 16:30
jesusalva wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 22:57 The quote from the Constitution is as old as the file itself, dating back to 2013, btw.
Doesn't means we always used non-free tools, we do tend to prefer FLOSS tools if we can help ourselves.
What's actually missing from FLOSS tools?
If we're officially using something non-FLOSS, there is a reason.

Localization boils down to: I cannot update them with a simple python script (or even a shell script).
There's some important things for translators, like a glossary and a concordance (so translations remain consistent in overall), and auto-detection for duplicate strings in different files (item names show both in server data and client data, should be translated the same and would be a waste of time).

We also have a very high number of strings for translation - way over 15k source strings, way over 120k source words on Moubootaur Legends; And way over 10k source strings / 70k words on TMW rEvolt + Evolved*

No FLOSS tool covers our needs. It doesn't exist. Our needs won't go away just because there's no FLOSS tool to cover it, and our devs can't be bothered with localization at all (not to translate, not to contribute or write translation software, not even to review or merge po files - Transifex should be merging po files automatically, though).

*: Only a few strings are currently available for translation.

So yes, if we're using officially a non-FLOSS tool, there's a reason.
Livio wrote: 29 Jan 2022, 16:30
jesusalva wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 22:57 Otherwise, TMW is a FLOSS game, running a FLOSS engine, and which you can connect with a FLOSS client and play. In other words, it adheres to the four basic freedoms and go no further.
Aren't the IRC/Discord bridges officially related to TMW?
Including here. Users are very important for a MMORPG. Our discord server has about 200 users already, which covers a lot of our community, retired devs and players, and I guess a bunch of bots too.

In this case, no FLOSS social network has 200+ members from our own community (let alone from potential community). Which is sad, but what we can (and do) is support the FLOSS network but NOT at expense of ourselves or the community. So we have a Matrix server now (with what, 7 people including bots?). We still support IRC (26 users incl. bots) and we obviously support our own game chat (...roughly same amount as IRC), but these are synchronous, so they don't really compete in the same category.

Need is the key, we don't go out looking for "oh lets see what this proprietary has to offer", we go as "we need a mark read feature" then see what have it (as a fun fact, element has no mark as read/unread feature).

This is not an official statement.
And while "living based on needs" may not seem elegant at first, it is what we all do. First we cover our needs, and only then we go out selecting preferences. Being a FLOSS tool is an elegant preference and a good taste one, but it is still a preference. You're entitled to feel that you need it to be FLOSS, but please don't force your own needy preferences on others.

For the record: None of the proprietary components are dependencies, nor do they make to the final product. (Except on the launcher, where there's optional modules to integrate with Discord and Steam). And that is a need, because of a compromise we did as a project - to allow the game to run on fully libre systems. So proprietary stuff will/should never be compulsory dependencies.
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Re: An invite from Libre Gaming Wiki

Post by jesusalva »

Our FLOSS drama aside, the meeting is tomorrow at 20:00 UTC - Feel free to participate!

(and no, I won't be there - I am also against voice, have bad hearing even in my native language, and am never free at Sundays).
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Re: An invite from Libre Gaming Wiki

Post by Livio »

jesusalva wrote: 29 Jan 2022, 18:14 So yes, if we're using officially a non-FLOSS tool, there's a reason.
I didn't say "there's no reason" but asked for the reasons themselves. I forgot about that Transifex translation.
Maybe I've seen something to use it from command line in Devuan repo. Probably from contrib or non-free.
Transifex is heavy due to its Javascript side. I still have to try that from CLI.
jesusalva wrote: 29 Jan 2022, 18:14 Including here. Users are very important for a MMORPG. Our discord server has about 200 users already, which covers a lot of our community, retired devs and players, and I guess a bunch of bots too.
So, discord server has almost twenty times online players more than TMW Legacy itself...
jesusalva wrote: 29 Jan 2022, 18:14 Need is the key, we don't go out looking for "oh lets see what this proprietary has to offer", we go as "we need a mark read feature" then see what have it (as a fun fact, element has no mark as read/unread feature).
That's why I asked. This game has dev tools collections lost in threads.
jesusalva wrote: 29 Jan 2022, 18:14 [...] but please don't force your own needy preferences on others.[/size]
I didn't used the "force" term. I just wanted to know why there's more need for non-free software now. And honestly I didn't thought too much about licenses when I contributed to the game but I got a bit disappointed during GitLab downtime.
jesusalva wrote: 29 Jan 2022, 18:14 For the record: None of the proprietary components are dependencies, nor do they make to the final product. (Except on the launcher, where there's optional modules to integrate with Discord and Steam). And that is a need, because of a compromise we did as a project - to allow the game to run on fully libre systems. So proprietary stuff will/should never be compulsory dependencies.
This game had a larger community years ago without all of this but I can't blame anyone for that. I really hope that's worth the compromise.
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Re: An invite from Libre Gaming Wiki

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Livio wrote: 29 Jan 2022, 19:20
jesusalva wrote: 29 Jan 2022, 18:14 Including here. Users are very important for a MMORPG. Our discord server has about 200 users already, which covers a lot of our community, retired devs and players, and I guess a bunch of bots too.
So, discord server has almost twenty times online players more than TMW Legacy itself...
Online at same time, it is just twice I think.
Livio wrote: 29 Jan 2022, 19:20
jesusalva wrote: 29 Jan 2022, 18:14 Need is the key, we don't go out looking for "oh lets see what this proprietary has to offer", we go as "we need a mark read feature" then see what have it (as a fun fact, element has no mark as read/unread feature).
That's why I asked. This game has dev tools collections lost in threads.
Official dev tools would be... GitLab, this forums, IRC, Tiled, Matrix, Transifex (non-free), with advise to use Krita. A collection of python scripts (both Python 2 and Python 3.6 - they're optimized to run on Debian Stretch/Buster and Ubuntu 18.04 iirc) and Makefiles. Not sure if anything else.

Moubootaur Legends uses Discord officially, it replaces both forums and GitLab issues. A bunch of pins in a dev channel is ML's issue tracker. But that's ML, not TMW. We (TMW2) are considering Matrix, it still lacks a small subset of core features I feel we'll need, so we're "monitoring" for now, but someday that should happen.
Livio wrote: 29 Jan 2022, 19:20
jesusalva wrote: 29 Jan 2022, 18:14 For the record: None of the proprietary components are dependencies, nor do they make to the final product. (Except on the launcher, where there's optional modules to integrate with Discord and Steam). And that is a need, because of a compromise we did as a project - to allow the game to run on fully libre systems. So proprietary stuff will/should never be compulsory dependencies.
This game had a larger community years ago without all of this but I can't blame anyone for that. I really hope that's worth the compromise.
I kinda prefer "survive at any cost" over "commit seppuku and die honorably", but honor is something that cannot be regained (while surviving is always a gamble). So I try to take caution when adopting a strategy.

Getting closer to Libre Gaming community can put a new breath of life in the project.

Moubootaur Legends strategy has been Steam since the very begin (by very begin, I mean project foundation). TMW adopted the same strategy out of convenience. In other words, TMW can still jump out of the ship if we find a better way to keep the project alive.

That is unlikely, though, we're cornered in the market. Between watching the project slowly and painfully die, I prefer to bet on Steam and non-free integrations :alt-9:
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Re: An invite from Libre Gaming Wiki

Post by Hello=) »

Mumble still have a text chat. If they don't kick you for being silent you can try use that.
Guess I'm not really comfortable about installing networked program centered around voice chats I don't normally use. Make comms inconvenient to me - and I'll try to avoid it. But guess you Livio know I got some funny idea on "decentralising" and "moderation" :)
Project-wise, TMW is not free and that was never a goal, except maybe during Platyna's years.
Ironically this has been golden age of TMW, 120 players, competent devs, thriving community. Powerful opensourcers that were able to learn others some cool things. I liked it this way. It's been good place to be. I've enjoyed it. Can't admit same about current state of project, unfortunately.

Livio, guess you can see what I meant about opensource-unfriendly project climate. These persons dont understand what opensource is meant to be, or what it could be. For them it's "free lunch". Shortcut. Easy route. Formal obligation to dump source. But if it wouldn't demand that... you can get nice EULA in the face. I think I've even seen good example. These ppl only care of THEIR freedoms - but fail to consider freedom of others. Yet its related topic, and freedom of one eventually starts to hurt freedom of other. That's where it ends.
I kinda prefer "survive at any cost" over "commit seppuku and die honorably"
I'm yet to see project that f...d up their ecosystem and survived it. And on personal level... there're ppl who create future and those who merely try to adapt to it, guess I like former ways, TMW2009 been this, TMW2022 isn't, unfortunately

As for ML it always felt like proprietary in terms of management and ways. One of reasons I avoid it. It got community to match and I dont think I should be in places like this. Doing unpaid jobs for halfproprietary someting also something weird in my book either.

p.s. quite interesting reading about discord btw... https://drewdevault.com/2021/12/28/Dont ... -FOSS.html - by some quite capable opensourcer. One of those proud souls creating future, rather than trying to adapt to stuff others created. I dont know him, but he like made me nice NY gift like that. Oh seems he's also sr.ht hosting creator. Quite funny way to advertise hosting to real opensourcers, btw :)
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Re: An invite from Libre Gaming Wiki

Post by Hocus Pocus Fidibus »

Wow, your arrogance is really boundless.
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Re: An invite from Libre Gaming Wiki

Post by Hello=) »

And what exactly of this sounds "arrogant"? It merely expresses my preferences and views I've got after hanging around, in their honest form. They're maybe not most popular within current team these days, but "arrogant"? How so?
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Re: An invite from Libre Gaming Wiki

Post by Hocus Pocus Fidibus »

Because it does again not even come to your mind that your opinion is not universal truth but just an opinion and not everybody who does not agree is "a person who does not understand"
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