No Game Masters on server

[melkior]

+1 Balth

And if I may add, might be good if the GMs had some time to cool off before they start discussing anything.

I've noticed a certain bitterness with some of the GMs after the loss of power. That I didn't expect and it's not a positive indicator.

Decisions, actions and discussion done while in that frame of mind won't help this situation.

A lot of bitterness is directed at Bjørn and IMO, there's no reason for that. I admit, at first I thought it was a bad idea, but the more I see, the more I feel that this is a valuable lesson for both the players and GMs.

Oh, and jaxad0127, while your argument is somewhat valid, it's also the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the issue. I implore you to stop doing that, and to stop dismissing every voice coming from the community. And please, try not to deny that. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't be having these little spats at regular intervals.

So, are we all going to say "hey, maybe we all really did some mistakes, how can we fix that?" or is it going to be the same as usual:

Players: "GMs/devs/game sucks."
Devs: "this isn't a game, we don't care"
GMs: "G is for God."

Personally, I'm tired of that little scenario. It's been repeating itself for far too long and we keep feeding it and poking it just barely enough to change the details, while keeping the main story rolling.

Now, Bjørn did a nice twist, and almost instantly, the majority of players started complaining about the lack of GMs. We obviously need them, yet we feel this experiment should go on if it will result in something fruitful.

But still, we don't want a GMless game, that much is clear. What we obviously do want is the rules and duties of the GMs to be fleshed out and regulated in the same manner as player rules. There were some good ideas even before the experiment. For instance MadCamel's Court of Appeals idea and similar. Whenever a topic like that is raised, it gets some traffic but it's mostly ignored (or even ridiculed) by devs who are in control. Sometimes for a good reason, but even then, a "You suck" would be a positive response.

The ball is in your court. Like I said, take a few to cool off, discuss what you feel needs be discussed but don't ignore us, not again. Most of you are busy and would rather get on with the development than dealing with crap like this. Well, let's try to make sure things like this don't happen again and that you DON'T have to deal with it.

What we all personally feel about each other is now completely irrelevant. It shouldn't affect the future of this game. That's why it would be really nice if we tried to fix things. Or shall we rather let it all go to hell? Again?

*shrugs*

This is my last positive effort directed at this game. I really hope it's not wasted.

[Jaxad0127]

+1 Balth

And if I may add, might be good if the GMs had some time to cool off before they start discussing anything.

I've noticed a certain bitterness with some of the GMs after the loss of power. That I didn't expect and it's not a positive indicator.

Decisions, actions and discussion done while in that frame of mind won't help this situation.

A lot of bitterness is directed at Bjørn and IMO, there's no reason for that. I admit, at first I thought it was a bad idea, but the more I see, the more I feel that this is a valuable lesson for both the players and GMs.

Oh, and jaxad0127, while your argument is somewhat valid, it's also the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the issue. I implore you to stop doing that, and to stop dismissing every voice coming from the community. And please, try not to deny that. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't be having these little spats at regular intervals.

So, are we all going to say "hey, maybe we all really did some mistakes, how can we fix that?" or is it going to be the same as usual:

Players: "GMs/devs/game sucks."
Devs: "this isn't a game, we don't care"
GMs: "G is for God."

Personally, I'm tired of that little scenario. It's been repeating itself for far too long and we keep feeding it and poking it just barely enough to change the details, while keeping the main story rolling.

Now, Bjørn did a nice twist, and almost instantly, the majority of players started complaining about the lack of GMs. We obviously need them, yet we feel this experiment should go on if it will result in something fruitful.

But still, we don't want a GMless game, that much is clear. What we obviously do want is the rules and duties of the GMs to be fleshed out and regulated in the same manner as player rules. There were some good ideas even before the experiment. For instance MadCamel's Court of Appeals idea and similar. Whenever a topic like that is raised, it gets some traffic but it's mostly ignored (or even ridiculed) by devs who are in control. Sometimes for a good reason, but even then, a "You suck" would be a positive response.

The ball is in your court. Like I said, take a few to cool off, discuss what you feel needs be discussed but don't ignore us, not again. Most of you are busy and would rather get on with the development than dealing with crap like this. Well, let's try to make sure things like this don't happen again and that you DON'T have to deal with it.

What we all personally feel about each other is now completely irrelevant. It shouldn't affect the future of this game. That's why it would be really nice if we tried to fix things. Or shall we rather let it all go to hell? Again?

*shrugs*

This is my last positive effort directed at this game. I really hope it's not wasted.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm just being wary of solutions like "listen to the majority". We've been thinking of alternatives, be sure of that point.

[rumpelstilzchen]

I agree to 100% with Booth. The only really active GM i have seen in the last time is Delasia. And she did a good job!

And Melkior, what did you mean with you see no difference so far? I was in the mine killing monsters and some (not one) players tryed to take all my drops. And i heared such things from a lot of players.

[melkior]

And Melkior, what did you mean with you see no difference so far? I was in the mine killing monsters and some (not one) players tryed to take all my drops. And i heared such things from a lot of players.

I'm sorry, but that is completely irrelevant to this topic.

a) drop protection is a server-side function which has nothing to do with the GMs
b) drop stealing is NOT an illegal activity, not with the current set of rules anyway, so any GM wouldn't and/or shouldn't do anything about it even if it's taking place
c) I see that kind of thing happen all the time. Some hopeful newbie thinks he can take my drops. Nothing unusual there.

So, I repeat, I have yet to see anything different.

[MasterKenobi]

+1 Balth

And if I may add, might be good if the GMs had some time to cool off before they start discussing anything.

I've noticed a certain bitterness with some of the GMs after the loss of power. That I didn't expect and it's not a positive indicator.

Decisions, actions and discussion done while in that frame of mind won't help this situation.

A lot of bitterness is directed at Bjørn and IMO, there's no reason for that. I admit, at first I thought it was a bad idea, but the more I see, the more I feel that this is a valuable lesson for both the players and GMs.

Let me start by saying I agreed with with most of what you posted, barring what I've quoted.

Am I a little bitter.......... yes.

Except you're mistaken about the reason. It's about a loss of power. What you don't understand is that the GM's have no power. I never considered being a GM as a powerful position. I just help out when needed and enforce the rules. I have no power over anyone and never would want power over anyone.
I have volunteered my personal free time to enforce the rules, because I believed in the Developers. In return, I would hope that the Developers would believe in me and my judgment as a GM. After all, they chose me to enforce their rules. But the way this played out, I feel my contribution to the game was not appreciated. Coming to me after the fact and saying it was, does little to remove the sting of being publicly demoted and now taunted in the game.


Finally, Melkior Please forgive me if I don't believe you when you say "I admit, at first I thought it was a bad idea". You have been quite public about your feelings on this issue.

MK

[rumpelstilzchen]

Melkior, i don't mean drop stealing. By the speed that happened, it was botting. They go to my drops before i really see them.

[melkior]

I'm skipping the first part to keep the discussion going, I'll reply when I feel I can add something useful.

Finally, Melkior Please forgive me if I don't believe you when you say "I admit, at first I thought it was a bad idea". You have been quite public about your feelings on this issue.

I'm sorry but I don't know exactly to what you're referring. I have been public about what exactly? I'm very public about everything I think or feel. I'm not exactly sure what part of that statement you're arguing against so you'll have to be more specific if you want me to respond.

Melkior, i don't mean drop stealing. By the speed that happened, it was botting. They go to my drops before i really see them.

Even so, you're still protected by the drop-protection. I've seen 3 bots at the same time the other day and the GMs still had their powers at that point. There will always be botters or players with hacked clients. Yet, that is besides the point, or at least besides the very core of this problem.

[MasterKenobi]

I'm skipping the first part to keep the discussion going, I'll reply when I feel I can add something useful.

Finally, Melkior Please forgive me if I don't believe you when you say "I admit, at first I thought it was a bad idea". You have been quite public about your feelings on this issue.

I'm sorry but I don't know exactly to what you're referring. I have been public about what exactly? I'm very public about everything I think or feel. I'm not exactly sure what part of that statement you're arguing against so you'll have to be more specific if you want me to respond.

First let me say, I believe in being honest......if I'm mistaken, please correct me if I'm wrong.
But haven't you publicly criticized the selection of certain GM's?
I thought I recalled you saying(in another topic) that the game didn't need GM's?

Again, if I'm wrong please say so and I'll correct myself. I have never been afraid to admit when I'm wrong.

MK

P.S. I have a 103 degree temperature so I'm definitely not working at capacity.

[melkior]

But haven't you publicly criticized the selection of certain GM's?

I have and I probably will if I feel they're not doing a good job. I never denied that. But I am trying to get beyond/past that issue at the moment for the sake of resolving bigger issues. In fact, solving issues that would render me "complaintless" if you allow me to invent words and phrases.

I thought I recalled you saying(in another topic) that the game didn't need GM's?

I won't deny that I have said something like that because I honestly don't remember if I have or haven't. A quick search on the forums didn't find anything, but that doesn't mean anything. But if I have said anything like that, I assure you, it was a sarcastic remark.

P.S. I have a 103 degree temperature so I'm definitely not working at capacity.

I'm sorry to hear that, I hope you get well soon.

[MasterKenobi]

But haven't you publicly criticized the selection of certain GM's?

I have and I probably will if I feel they're not doing a good job. I never denied that. But I am trying to get beyond/past that issue at the moment for the sake of resolving bigger issues. In fact, solving issues that would render me "complaintless" if you allow me to invent words and phrases.

I thought I recalled you saying(in another topic) that the game didn't need GM's?

I won't deny that I have said something like that because I honestly don't remember if I have or haven't. A quick search on the forums didn't find anything, but that doesn't mean anything. But if I have said anything like that, I assure you, it was a sarcastic remark.

P.S. I have a 103 degree temperature so I'm definitely not working at capacity.

I'm sorry to hear that, I hope you get well soon.

Ok. Thank you for clearing that up Mel and thank you for you well wishes, most kind.

MK

[Black Don]

I find that to define the role of a GM "power" is the wrong word to use. I like the word respect. GMs are there so people respect the rules. The 5 main rules. For a GM to be able to do that they have to respect the players. I find the respect for players has been dropping. Was it wrong to leave someone in the bot check map for 9 hours because of a server crash? No I don't think there was any hurtful intent there. Was is a lack of respect to not inform someone that this happened in IRC so it could be fixed by someone else if the GM had no time too? Yes it was. Is it respectful to tell people off that you personally don't like? No it is not. Is it respectful to cut some people slack over the rules but to turn around and temp another person to break the same rule? No. I could turn this on myself and ask is it respectful to constantly harp on one person about their conduct as an officiator in this game? I would reply with this question is it respectful to the people they hurt if I say nothing at all? Is it respectful to the Dev community if I see something wrong and don't mention that it is something that should be fixed? Respect is not about liking everyone or being liked by everyone. Respect is not something given to you but something you earn from them with your actions. This post alone will have given me the respect of some and disrespect of others. I can't control that. I just hope I never wittiness and GM saying to me "go ahead and complain, no one will do anything", for that statement lacks respect for the player community as a hole.

[Balthazaar]

+1 to Mel and +1 to MK and +1 to even you Jax

Now that we know how both sides are feeling emotional. Let's try to put all that aside. Not to say that feelings aren't appreciated or good or whatever, just that strong feelings can get in the way sometimes of progress. By my personal poll MK and this goes for the rest of the GM's your contribution of your free time is greatly appreciated by all I have seen the post commenting on it time and time again and i have made a few myself in the past. But lets not forget this is a community and many players have also contributed to the community as well by bringing in new players new developers new artists etc and making it a fun place to play by helping others. So as I said before we all love this game. So with this said let's talk about the solution here.

I know no one wants to start. I think the court of appeals is an interesting idea and others as well. Maybe if we start with 1 rule or suggestion at a time we can work through the differences here and get back to having fun. We need to definately adress consistency which is what i've been hearing (and yes alot of people don't go on the forum that play) it's the lack of consistency that makes players feel cheated. For example one situation is handled by this GM this way but another another way and yet this one Bjorn steps in and trumps everyone etc.

So with that being said maybe the GM's again can get together and talk and maybe the player groups can get together and talk amongst clans parties and individuals and spread the word etc so we don't get overwhelmed with 100 rules at once then lets start a new thread and discuss a couple at a time in their own thread. Let the GM
s vote for one to start with in a poll and let the players start with one in another poll till some sorta agreement is met till we exhaust the rules we would like etc. Just a suggestion.

*cues trolls*

[Balthazaar]

oops missed that while i was typing +10 don

[salmondine]

I have yet to see any abuses in GM's absences.
MasterKenobi stated a group of players complained to Bjorn, OK there were good reasons to complain.
Where else should players go to mediate problems with a GM?
It is not a derogatory action to seek fair treatment.

additionally,

I was in 6 skull room when troll was taken to bot check room, delasia said 2 min to respond and poof 5-15 sec later
troll disappeared....not 2 min.
Not that it was wrong to take him to bot-check room, but 2 min is 2 min and not a fraction less.
Leaving him there for many hours is another issue, server crash not withstanding.

Better questions for me, than most of this thread are:
IF we bring back GM's What do we want them to do?
Be substitutes for ignore function?
Be babysitters?
Bot checkers only?
Enforce the English only rule/preference? ....to my knowledge no one was ever banned for breaking this rule...I hope they never are.

In reality i think many want GM's in game only because they hope to be one someday.
I would hope a auto-bot check solution can be found and GM activities will no longer be required.

[Fern]

I have volunteered my personal free time to enforce the rules, because I believed in the Developers. In return, I would hope that the Developers would believe in me and my judgment as a GM. After all, they chose me to enforce their rules. But the way this played out, I feel my contribution to the game was not appreciated. Coming to me after the fact and saying it was, does little to remove the sting of being publicly demoted and now taunted in the game.

From just my personal view:
I believe that your contribution as an enforcer of rules was appreciated, but their rules and/or the procedures were not the right ones, because these things are clearly not easy to do. This experiment is not against GMs, I think that it's the procedures and rules the ones that are not being appreciated and that's why they are the ones that actually have been removed during this experiment, the ones that actually need review. Perhaps this experiment will help to find out what are exactly the rules we need, and if we need them.

But even in the case that no rules were needed then your contribution would have helped to actually reach this point and it was in fact appreciated. I'm sure that you, yourself, can find examples for that from all the time you were helping. GMs have been very useful during all the time before anti-steal, blocking, anti-spam and other tools were designed (and before blocking was actually being used by people). Your contribution has made the gameworld a better place, but in my opinion now the little kid wants to try for some time to walk by itself and see if it can be some time alone without its parents. We will know if it has grown up or not. Letting the kid go can be painful for the parents, but don't think you were not appreciated.