How to deal with people who create bot clients?

[Crush]

I didn't question anyones ethics. I just wanted to know what the community thinks about this topic.

[John P]

Amun, don't ever go into politics.

I don't care for third-party gameplay modifications at all. When a mod is created, development (while already overwhelmed, I know) should always consider adoption of the mod into the game itself, explicit restriction of the mod, or judge it to be harmless to the game's function (as in, it does not give users an edge). The last option will be rare; the only reason to create a mod is to create advantage.

In less words, I agree with Ivan that the gameplay itself should be fixed/improved to negate modification (at least for TMW). While the game is in such early stages, simply discouraging the mods will suffice. Don't waste man hours trying to "block" them or anything.

[thedarkfinder]

I just don't see the fun/reason to play if you just set your computer to doing the task while you sit there and watch (and probably browse the internet, watch TV, play another character, etc on the side too).

At least to me - the difference is noticeable, usually. Of course the automated non-afk botters know they need to talk to me They don't have to talk to other players though - hence the use of the @wgm command sometimes.

I tend to agree with Ivan on this one - why are players using these automated bots for? Leveling? Money? Items? Figure out what it is and consider making changes in how such things are obtained. Grinding can be very boring, I personally was lucky enough to fall into a great group of other players who were also grinding - and guess what? We chatted quite a bit - and some of us have become very good friends based on those days

There ya go - my opinion!

Ti, I bot because I can not fight and chat at the same time.
How many times of everyone seen me die because I was lost in a whisper. I have friends. So I just sit my little character to kill mode and chat up with who ever is online. I see no problem with this.

It is impossible to chat and fight at the same time. Heck it is impossible to bot and chat most times, for me at least. Do I sit my little character to kill mode and chat, yes I do. It makes the game playable. But I play the game to talk to the people not for levels, money, or other stuff. Most people that know me, know I will give you anything I have it. I ready do not care, but chatting is what makes it a game for me. And if I have to bot to chat and be with friends then I will bot sorry but that is the truth.


I do find it revealing that we are talking about "dealing" with something that can not be defined.

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

The moral of the story, if you let them not define what is the enemy, but deal with what they see as the immediate threat, they will slowing get everyone until they come for you.

[Tiana]

There are many ways of playing the game. I was able to play without any automation, chat, and overall have fun while I leveled. Clearly automation makes many things easier for players and might just be how the game naturally evolves. The use of automation does not make a player = evil. I would be a hypocrite if I said that since I use 4144 myself and I do enjoy some features of it. Overall - my original opinion in my earlier post still holds, I currently do feel that automation is against the spirit of the game even if I do occasionally use it myself... We shall see what comes I suppose

The original question was more of how to handle players who make these clients, not really players who use them. Out of the options given I would pick encourage them. Lets see what they can do. If its an exploit - then its exposed and can be fixed. If its beneficial then it can be added to the official client.

[Speiros01]

I didn't choose to answer any of the three options, as I don't think any of them are a fair look at the issue presented. The problem regarding dealing with people who create bot clients is this . . . why should a person be discriminated against because they are doing something permitted by a technicality in the rules?

Either botting is legal, or botting is illegal. Either the devs and owners of the games are concerned about it, or not concerned about it. It is silly really to have any problem with any type of botter, if they are allowed to bring these clients online in the first place. This is exactly what it says. If the bot is allowed on the game, is it not wrong to discriminate against the creator of the bot? They are not doing anything wrong. And as for the user, neither are they.

Still, if it IS banned in the game, then action should be taken. It isn't a matter of having to fight them. I just don't like that word. I would suggest a slightly different post regarding this.
1) If it is being put to the public to decide whether it is wrong or right, let there be a poll to see what people think.
2) The decision of the members should be scrutinised by the devs and owners, and a decisive decision reached. This is up to the devs and owners to decide, as technically, there is no obligation by them to listen to the users. It is THEIR server as such, so using it is a privilege. Still, there is a genuine issue that hasn't been resolved, and this is it.
3) Once the decisive decision is reached, a chart of how it is going to be applied should be discussed by the devs.
4) The devs should INFORM the public of their decision, and let the public know of how it is going to be enforced/removed.
5) A delegation of duties to enforce or dissipate any of the decisions reached should be given out. This may be for instance in the case that it is decided to allow botting, that there is a ruling on what kinds of bots are allowed, or that if someone suggests a bot, it is scrutinised by the dev body before being allowed. Or if it is decided against, there might be regular announcements for a period, or in the sign on page, which has all the messages such as "it looks like magic has made a comeback . . ." It needs a new message anyway. This can be in point form, and can be applied by specific rules by the GM's, devs and management, or however it works.

Either way, at the current state, it is unfair to have an opinion on how we should deal with these people who create them when there is no actual definition as to whether they are doing any wrongs at all. Why fight against someone because we don't like the colour of their shirt? Oh, sorry. That's football. lol.

[Armadeus]

Automation is fine as long as you are present to respond to the GMs. If you don't respond to the GMs within 2 minutes, you are considered botting and will be dealt with as described above.

So, as Jaxad0127 has stated. You're allowed to automatically play/fight/bot whatever you prefer to call it, as long as you're ready to respond to the GMs when they come around.

As for an "away from the keyboard" automation play, it should result in a permanent ban, but you see, there's a reset. Which is always good, it gives them a chance to start a new player, try and have fun again without botting.

[Speiros01]

Automation is fine as long as you are present to respond to the GMs. If you don't respond to the GMs within 2 minutes, you are considered botting and will be dealt with as described above.

So, as Jaxad0127 has stated. You're allowed to automatically play/fight/bot whatever you prefer to call it, as long as you're ready to respond to the GMs when they come around.

As for an "away from the keyboard" automation play, it should result in a permanent ban, but you see, there's a reset. Which is always good, it gives them a chance to start a new player, try and have fun again without botting.

Fair enough, but the thread is asking how we should treat a person who creates such a bot.

[Armadeus]

I know that, but I saw somebody talking about automation even at the keyboard shouldn't result in a permanent ban.

[AnonDuck]

Missing option: Corrupt them into helping with the official client and improving gameplay.

The only reason to write a bot for TMW is if you are bored. Bored people who can code will probably help out if approached right.

[supermanfan]

The only bot that should be promoted is tradebot. Nothing wrong with it.

[MrDudle]

mistakes

I agree with your looking into what is being automated. I think there are instances where automation could be useful. Such as spells to create lifestones or volcanic ash etc.. Those spells are a nuisance to just sit and make.

[Dude]

Missing option: Corrupt them into helping with the official client and improving gameplay.

The only reason to write a bot for TMW is if you are bored. Bored people who can code will probably help out if approached right.

I'm withholding a vote in favor of MCs suggestion.

[baseballboy]

Missing option: Corrupt them into helping with the official client and improving gameplay.

The only reason to write a bot for TMW is if you are bored. Bored people who can code will probably help out if approached right.

+1

[BewareAlbatross]

I'm new to the game but it seems to me, and this is coming from somebody who lived and breathed WoW for awhile and saw what AFK botting did to that world, that the arguments that make the most sense are that:

People don't automate processes like talking to their friends. They automate processes like killing six thousand bats to make the money for one piece of armor. I actually tend to enjoy doing that. I am crazy like that, either that or WoW permanently broke my brain, but I do feel there's a valid point in saying that if people are doing an activity that even when they do it manually, they are doing it in a robotic, mindless manner, that it really makes absolutely no difference whether they target the bat, kill the bat, move on to the next bat, by way of macros or by way of bots or by way of manually hitting the A button, then the Ctrl button, etc... I agree that AFK botting is against the spirit of an MMO, but botting in general... We're forgetting that manual grinding is a form of botting, it's just you're the bot. There's no creativity required at the moment for killing bats.

So I think that to a degree as long you're there, what difference does it make how you kill a bunch of bats. But I do think y'know, it's an MMO, you should be there to talk to people now and then.

And also, the other argument... These are bored hackers trying to automate repetitive processes. If we look at the areas they're automating we will find things that could be improved upon... And they probably already have ideas on how to do it, as well as the coding knowledge to get it done.

[iceslice]

voting options are li'l biased against

well there could be another option like "divert them to good work" or so.