Update Procedure

A place for The Mana World players to discuss game-related topics outside the scope of development including guilds, player interactions, game meta and more.


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o11c
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Re: Update Procedure

Post by o11c »

bell chick wrote:also level limits on items hurt new players as well who may be smart enough to get the right items faster.
The level limit would always be at least as permissive as the quest that gives you the item.
blackrazor wrote:1) It should be considered a conflict of interest, and thus forbidden, for anyone to push their OWN updates to the live server.
We're mostly doing that. When it was time for the big update, I offered Frost to do the the update, but he refused and told me to do it. Do I have to pull out logs?

Also, since right now I'm the only one who can pull updates on the main server, and all of the potential candidates for server admin who might be added are also involved in development to some degree, it would be quite possible even with multiple server admins for there to be an update that, according to your rule, *nobody* would be able to pull.

But it's not like what goes into the repositories isn't reviewed and approved by developers anyway.
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Re: Update Procedure

Post by Rawng »

straelyn wrote:I'm sure everyone's mind is already made up on this, but to me the most balanced approach would be to make the level requirement part of requirements for activating item bonuses, but that's it. In other words, if by some miracle some noob got ahold of a banshee bow then technically they could use it, and it would certainly be a little better than some ordinary bow, but it's not as if they'd be clearing the desert of every living thing within a few seconds.
I think straelyn has a good idea here. Low level characters can equip items for fashion purposes if they wish and the intended balance of the game/item is not affected.

Ultimately old players need to realize that this game is still being developed and is very much a Work In Progress. Any mmo style game needs to be balanced on a per in game character basis as opposed to a per real player basis.

The game is grindy but that cannot be fixed by taking a shortsighted view of the game's development. New content (mobs, items, weapons, armor, skills, maps, all of it) needs to be developed and properly balanced in order to substantially improve the gameplay experience.

"The darkest hour is just before dawn."

About the actual topic of this thread... What about a forum post is put up and stickied a few days before the update goes to the live server that details the visible and important changes. People would be free to discuss the changes and their views on them etc.
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SriNitayanda
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Re: Update Procedure

Post by SriNitayanda »

o11c wrote:But it's not like what goes into the repositories isn't reviewed and approved by developers anyway.
You mentioned yourself in the dev meeting that after you became a dev you had much less time to play, so why not get some comments from dedicated players from the testing group about new content also. we could do it if we knew when the update is going to happen and what will be introduced in it, it may prevent some flamewars on the forums also.
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Re: Update Procedure

Post by Hello=) »

bell chick wrote:the danger is you make old players mad in the hope of improving player retention and if this doesnt work you lose both old players and new. also level limits on items hurt new players as well who may be smart enough to get the right items faster. this game is too grindy as it is. anything that increases grinding by any amount should be discouraged
Because right now decision making seems to work like this: players face the fact some stuff thrown on their heads. And last times it tends to cause a lot of churn and grief, because feedback loop is broken, those are who rolling out updates usually not really play much and at very best they could have very rough idea how players actually play TMW.

And I don't see why there is need to disallow equipping of items completely. IMO it's better when bonus does not apply but item can be used for fashion/appearance thing. It's generally unpleasant to face 100% artificial limits. The more dumb limits players would face, the worse player retention would be. And "this item would not equip because we decided so" does not looks like too impressive explanation for players, btw. And now TMW actually lacks diversity and different appearance for items used in battle. In fact, half of equipment almost never used due to really useless stats. For example, Ice gladius: no real use as it isn't anyhow better than anything player haves at lvl 70 already. Rock knife? Only used for extra health by few tanks/runners, not really used to stab anything in battle. Terranite armor set? Expensive like a hell and almost useless (except pants, maybe).
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Re: Update Procedure

Post by Hello=) »

SriNitayanda wrote:You mentioned yourself in the dev meeting that after you became a dev you had much less time to play, so why not get some comments from dedicated players from the testing group
Ahh, about testing group. I applied here in hope it would help me to get idea on what's going up so I can test it. Hmm, I utterly fail to see any announcements about upcoming updates. Updates rather landed like lightning from clear sky. At least it looks for me this way: there was no announcements to testers group, isn't it?
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o11c
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Re: Update Procedure

Post by o11c »

SriNitayanda wrote:why not get some comments from dedicated players from the testing group about new content also.
It's not like we're developing anything in secret. People can look in the development forum and on IRC if they're interested.

If we announced every update *before* it's ready, it would be completely pointless.
If we announced every update after it's ready, we would accomplish nothing but to cut in half the amount of work we can get done.
t3st3r wrote:And I don't see why there is need to disallow equipping of items completely. IMO it's better when bonus does not apply but item can be used for fashion/appearance thing.
That is *really* confusing if you aren't expecting it. A novice player equips the item, sees that it has *some* effect, but doesn't realize that most of its effects are negated.
t3st3r wrote:And now TMW actually lacks diversity and different appearance for items used in battle. In fact, half of equipment almost never used due to really useless stats. For example, Ice gladius: no real use as it isn't anyhow better than anything player haves at lvl 70 already. Rock knife? Only used for extra health by few tanks/runners, not really used to stab anything in battle. Terranite armor set? Expensive like a hell and almost useless (except pants, maybe).
That is exactly why items *do* need level restrictions. We will definitely have to change some numbers eventually, but in the end we want to say "X is the best armor at level 40, Y is the best armor at level 50"
t3st3r wrote:
SriNitayanda wrote:You mentioned yourself in the dev meeting that after you became a dev you had much less time to play, so why not get some comments from dedicated players from the testing group
Ahh, about testing group. I applied here in hope it would help me to get idea on what's going up so I can test it. Hmm, I utterly fail to see any announcements about upcoming updates. Updates rather landed like lightning from clear sky. At least it looks for me this way: there was no announcements to testers group, isn't it?
The only change that should have gone through testing was the graveyard resetting. We have told MadCamel to follow proper procedures next time.
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Re: Update Procedure

Post by Quinny »

I beleive that no matter how it is done someone or some few are not going to be happy. You can not make everyone happy all the time. Yes there are times when thing really didn't go as planned and there should have been a plan B. There have also been times when things have gone great. So I say stop writing here about xyz not being how you want it and try writing how xyz could be or how to improve xyz. At least that way TMWC would have a way to see what the players want and might have an idea as to how it could happen. And just because you post an idea,thought,ect. does not mean it can or will work but there are also some ways around things like that. (No I am not the one skilled in this area just my own though).

With the requirements to use certain items I like. I don't think it should be all items but some like the Illia rewards seems good. It gives players a goal besides grinding to aim at.
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Re: Update Procedure

Post by Rawng »

o11c wrote:
t3st3r wrote:And I don't see why there is need to disallow equipping of items completely. IMO it's better when bonus does not apply but item can be used for fashion/appearance thing.
That is *really* confusing if you aren't expecting it. A novice player equips the item, sees that it has *some* effect, but doesn't realize that most of its effects are negated.
Perhaps the client could notify the player in some manner that the effects will not take affect until the specified level? Something like including in the mouse-over tool-tip "These bonuses will not work until you are level 50", coloring the particular bonuses in a red font or shading the background of the icon a red or some other color.

I realize that neither the server nor client has the infrastructure for this right now, but it is not unfeasible as a future goal.

Perhaps the tool-tip could simply be formatted as such:
"normal item info

Bonuses to be applied at level 50:
bonus1
bonus2
"

Do any of these scenarios seem feasible?
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o11c
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Re: Update Procedure

Post by o11c »

Implementing such item descriptions is certainly doable ... But do people actually read item descriptions?

I know what when I was just a n00b, I was barely aware of the numbers at *all*.

Of course, this would only work for the Illia items, not solve the *general* case of balance vs fashion, since most item effects are not scripted so can't be made level-conditional (yet).
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Re: Update Procedure

Post by SriNitayanda »

o11c wrote:It's not like we're developing anything in secret. People can look in the development forum and on IRC if they're interested.
I do read the development forums, i did go to testing and saw the new icons before they were released, i did see the new behavior of illia items. like i said in the my original post i didn't knew when and if it is going to be implemented to the game. I pretty much felt like Hello=) in this the update came like a lightning from clear sky.
I'll give you an example how it can be done differently, when i tested illia with V0id there was a date he intended to release the quest if enough testing was done. Enough testing was done and the quest didn't get released the minute enough testing was done but on the date it was intended to be released.
i really dont see why it is such a big effort to inform, not even the players but the testing group about new content before it is being released and what is the date that it is intended to be released at. even if it delays new content by few days, preventing bugs , exploits inconveince of players are a part of a productive process. not just releasing new updates as soon as possible.
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2013-11/26/#General.log:[15:00] veryape: meh, guild is down, we cant conspire at all
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Re: Update Procedure

Post by Rawng »

o11c wrote:Implementing such item descriptions is certainly doable ... But do people actually read item descriptions?

I know what when I was just a n00b, I was barely aware of the numbers at *all*.

Of course, this would only work for the Illia items, not solve the *general* case of balance vs fashion, since most item effects are not scripted so can't be made level-conditional (yet).
Unless a better solution to balance vs fashion can be found it seems like this is the appropriate solution to the dilemma. I fully admit my ignorance regarding the scripting system though so whether or not it's worth the effort will have to be decided.

Also, as a n00b, I read all descriptions. If someone fails to notice what is put right in front of their face, they have no one to blame but themselves.
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Re: Update Procedure

Post by o11c »

It's a lot easier to do announcements for big updates than for little ones.
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SriNitayanda
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Re: Update Procedure

Post by SriNitayanda »

I am not saying any bugfix should get an anouncement. however last update wasn't a small bugfix, changing mob behavior in gy is quite a big thing, it was not even in the news feed inside the game and not a minute in testing server, or at least wasn't listed in the news feed there. Item behavior was not a small change either since players were used to the way it was for few months already. neither icon change was a small change.
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Re: Update Procedure

Post by Hello=) »

o11c wrote:[That is *really* confusing if you aren't expecting it. A novice player equips the item, sees that it has *some* effect, but doesn't realize that most of its effects are negated.
I've seen better ways to handle it: allow to equip whatver but show well-visible warning like "your stats are too low for this item - bonus is not in effect!". Seen it in other games and it works quite well.
That is exactly why items *do* need level restrictions.
Oh, o11c's way of doing things strikes back. I've thought game just needs SEVERAL items with comparable stats, but different properties and appearance. Say, one sword could give more damage bonus but be slower, other could be fast, light but less damage, etc. But o11c offers some restrictions instead. Haha, very funny. For o11c maybe. For players? Unlikely. Why it supposed to be fun to hit some restrictions? In fact lack of flexibility and hardcoded predefined "best item for level X" is quite annoying misfeature of TMW. So every lvl 90+ mage looks almost same. Every lvl 90+ warrior looks the same. Maybe lvl 90+ archers can afford somewhat diverse appearance, but most players stick to similar outfits as there're generally single best sets of items.
"X is the best armor at level 40, Y is the best armor at level 50"
To be honest it does not changes things too much: now not just lvl 90+ players would look the same but also lvl 40 and lvl 50. Not a huge difference to my taste.
The only change that should have gone through testing was the graveyard resetting. We have told MadCamel to follow proper procedures next time.
Hmm? I've thought it's better to test everything that changed. But of course it's also possible to turn players on main server into your lab rats. Except that players don't necessarily want to be these lab rats.
Last edited by Hello=) on 04 Dec 2013, 10:10, edited 2 times in total.
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Equipment level restrictions [split from: Update Procedure]

Post by Rawng »

t3st3r wrote:
o11c wrote:That is exactly why items *do* need level restrictions.
Oh, o11c's way of doing things strikes back. I've thought game just needs SEVERAL items with comparable stats, but different properties and appearabce. Say, one sword could give more damage bonus but be slower, other could be fast, light but less damage, etc. But o11c offers some restrictions instead. Haha, very funny. For o11c maybe. For players? Unlikely. Why it supposed to be fun to hit some restrictions? In fact lack of flexibility and hardcoded predefined "best item for level X" is quite annoying misfeature of TMW. So every lvl 90+ mage looks almost same. Every lvl 90+ warrior looks the same. Maybe lvl 90+ archers can afford somewhat diverse appearance, but most players stick to similar outfits as there're generally single best sets of items.
Having level restrictions on items can in no way be construed to be a restriction on new and creative items. The level restrictions would be intended to prevent low level players from blowing through the early stages of the game. Which players are more likely to be able to get powerful items into the hands of low level characters? Players who have been playing for a very long time. Meanwhile new players are left in the dust.

It's good to hear that you've been thinking of several items for the game. Slow sword with high damage? Light fast sword with lower damage? Sounds great! If you think that a particular level range is lacking in the weapon department perhaps you could start working there? I hope that since you have so many ideas you'll help with getting them into the game instead of incessantly trying to pick useless and time wasting fights.
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