so long, and thanks for all the fish

[o11c]

We have every right. TMW is a privilege, not a right, and we can withdraw it from anybody at any time. This attitude of entitlement *is* a problem with our society in general; it would be more accurate, for example, to say that there is no Bill of Rights, there is only a Bill of Privileges Bought by Blood. We *don't* live in a perfect world, we live in a world that people have chosen, and we have to deal with everything that that implies.

To avoid both anarchy and autocracy, TMW provides a set of rules (along with a human element to prevent too much rigidity), which most people are quite happy to follow.

If you want a different set or rules, you can either go somewhere else, or you propose that the rules be changed. I was just an ordinary player when I obliviously laid out (mostly repeating arguments that other people had already made) exactly what was wrong with the old botting rules. But I've noticed a LOT less people complaining now than back then, so I doubt you would really get widespread community support.

I didn't choose this nick on a whim, you know. I *mean*, I *live* it. Everything that I am? It is only *one* step away from the most oblivious n00b.

[elsa]

We have every right. TMW is a privilege, not a right, and we can withdraw it from anybody at any time. This attitude of entitlement *is* a problem with our society in general; it would be more accurate, for example, to say that there is no Bill of Rights, there is only a Bill of Privileges Bought by Blood. We *don't* live in a perfect world, we live in a world that people have chosen, and we have to deal with everything that that implies.

To avoid both anarchy and autocracy, TMW provides a set of rules (along with a human element to prevent too much rigidity), which most people are quite happy to follow.

If you want a different set or rules, you can either go somewhere else, or you propose that the rules be changed. I was just an ordinary player when I obliviously laid out (mostly repeating arguments that other people had already made) exactly what was wrong with the old botting rules. But I've noticed a LOT less people complaining now than back then, so I doubt you would really get widespread community support.

I didn't choose this nick on a whim, you know. I *mean*, I *live* it. Everything that I am? It is only *one* step away from the most oblivious n00b.

You have the rights to say nonsense and we have the rights to ignore you and go elsewhere and see you and the project fail as it's failing.
You have no idea how to talk with people and this is just another proof, you want to be god in a world where there are no gods, you lost another player, i hope you are happy with your awesome PR job because if your plan is to get 0 players online you are going in the right direction.

dearly yours,

another unhappy ex player.

[Chicka-Maria]

The TMWC can veto gm candidates that has passed the polls, but to my knowledge that has never happened.

It happened for Chicka's poll back when it was the GHP and we were under Platyna. Sure, Platyna was the one who actually used the veto in the end, but there was already lack of consensus among the rest of the GHP, which would be a rejection under the current rules also.

technically there was no good reason for my poll actually. The only reason i got denied by platyna was because two GMs voted no for me. Then platyna got blamed x) and the poll was never talked about again even after she was gone.

regards,
Chicka

[Cassy]

SoM and related games were designed that you can change between chars while fighting and all of them get EXP, but TMW wasn't designed that way.

TMW is a MMORPG and in MMORPGs you should play with others to get EXP easier and not with yourself
That's not an uncommon "rule".

Btw thanks for telling what bothers you straelyn.
I think that's important.

[SriNitayanda]

i read this post again now, so in general you leave the game cause you broke the rules got a warning, not even a ban and now you blame current tmwc structure for keeping this rule which was decided under platyna's rule... to be frank sounds like a cry baby to me.
Playing with 2 characters even if none of their behavior is automated, DOES give you an advantage over other players, even if you didn't play near other players in isolated area's, all other banshee archers who hunt with banshee need to use lots of healing in order to keep going, you on the other hand didn't need to use any healing and got double exp. so yeah directly you didn't interfere anyone but in general you could end up being the richest banshee archer around.
For the record, when i was noobier, i did something similar again without automation, i played with a rager on one window and mage with the other and healed myself while my rager was killing yetis (in an isolated map), Prsm popped up like gm's do when they make rounds and suspect someone is breaking the rules, he warned me, i stopped doing it and hey even if i am not one of the closest friends of prsm i have no problem with what he did (THATS WHAT HE IS SUPPOSED TO DO). i interepted the rules in a wrong way got an advantage over others got warned and stopped doing it. and btw if you look in the GM logs you can see many players got this warning for exactly the same behavior (there is still a sneaky way of playing with 2 charaters, stacking, healing or whatever when only one is active and this is legal according to current rules).
Tmwc structure, rules whatever got nothing to do with this case, but oh well it became popular now to blame tmwc for every evil made on earth (i heard they conspire to initiate world war 3 and gain world domination, tmw was just the start).
Anyway being active with more than 1 player is illegal now cause there were huge stack bots 3 years ago, which gave few players huge advantage over others and gy map used to be cleaned in 5 minutes. although this rule made tmw less popular amongst botters it brought back some old players who were happy to see stack botting gone.
A gm who sees you playing with 2 characters cant know if their behavior is scripted or not, s/he doesn't have access to your webcam/screen yet (i heard o11c is planning to implement it next code release as a part of tmwc-prism plan).
Anyway so long...

[Wombat]

We had a few options when auto-follow was becoming a major problem:

1. Change all content so players could play multiple characters at a time.

This would've made the entire game 1 player per party, so balance would've needed to be reworked. We opted against this because the strain on some computers would make it impossible for lots of people to compete and we would of had to go through all previous content to establish a higher power for all quests and monsters.

2. Leave everything the same.

At that time, it was untenable and real people were leaving the game rather frequently in frustration because all the hunting grounds were getting dominated by single player multi-boxing parties.

3. Find a technical solution.

The amount of invasiveness IIRC is high with our current abilities. Tracking IP addresses and comparing them to multiple accounts and users would need regular communication between admins and GMs and the amount of spying on players would have to dramatically increase, not to mention the workload on the admins and GMs. I (We?) am in favor of a technical solution that is intuitive to GMs, admins, developers and players without a high level of invasiveness or work needed for those supervising the server.

We went with banning auto-follow not because it is inherently bad, but because it is easily abused. The client wasn't supposed to offer it, but since we opted to support a client that conflicted with our rules, we have this constant problem. The client really shouldn't offer auto-follow until we can develop a better way to defend the server from multi-boxing, but that is up to TMWC to request a fix. Prior to making Manaplus the official client, I had requested any client used on the server officially not have the auto-follow option. But at this point, since Manaplus has already been supported officially after the fact, it would cause so much more handwringing than it is worth.

[straelyn]

seems to me, wombat, the problem was that tmw wasn't big enough.

[Wombat]

seems to me, wombat, the problem was that tmw wasn't big enough.

Sounds like a reason to build a new server or fork. I am a fan of TMW'S forks and enjoyed developing and playing them. Large maps like the Terranite cave would be awesome with a single player per party game. The monsters and threats would need vast increases but I'd love to try something like that.

[straelyn]

Forks just get smaller and smaller. If I can't do it here, I don't want to do it.
There's one thing in this game I do have control over, and that's my participation in it. I'm out. I quit.

[blackrazor]

Regarding MMO def'n:

16 or 32 was a limit to define arena-type games, like Quake and MechWarrior.

30 to 100-ish was a limit to define very small un-scalable homebrew type MOGs, like Hostile Space, TMW, Outer Galaxies, Pocket Galaxy, Subspace Continuum Trenchwars arenas, Crossfire (the rogue-like MMO, not the shooter), VB-type MOGs like Secrets of Mirage and Lands of Magic, and Byond-type MOGs like Seika and Mystic Journeys, and others.

Well into the many 100's is certainly not WoW, but you are getting into small MMOs, like the many Korean "free-to-play" ones. Also included here are the many Ragnarok Online shards (free realms) that used the full functionality of the eAthena serversoft.

Into the many 1000's and beyond, you are dealing with the majors, such as Wow, Eve, Everquest, Ultima Online, Runescape, etc.

Regarding Rules & GMs on the TMWC:

It's not controversial so no need to be defensive. The TMWC makes, updates, interprets, and arbitrates the rules. Just because they don't add a new rule this year or next, does not mean anything. It is still their job, and only their job, if and when they see fit to do it. The GMs are now on the TMWC, so the responsibility of making the rules is on them, as on the rest of the TMWC. They could, perhaps even should, consult the community; that would be great. But it changes nothing about the maintenance of the rules being their responsibility. This is a major change from earlier times; GMs have a lot more importance and power now, with their presence on the TMWC, and with that power comes the responsibility for maintenance of the rules, not just their enforcement.

You're not just the Cops and Judges now, you're also the Congress. So, gone are the days when you can say: "Sorry, I don't write the rules, I just enforce them." Technically, you may not have written a rule, this week, this month, or this year, but it's your job, your responsibility, now.

[Hello=)]

There is a HUGE difference between cooperative multiplayer and massively multiplayer. It's not worth comparing them at *all*.

Not really true.
1) Properly designed MMORPGs usually expect serious level of cooperation between players. For example, to fight tough (boss) monsters. Coooperation is a half of fun in MMORPGs actually. But you seem to think MMORPG is all about levelling, and everything else does not matters. Which dooms gameplay to be boring like a hell, unfortunately. Such approach could work for single-player but even then it would be damn boring without trying to convert it to adventure. And in general its more fun to deal with alive humans than with bots/NPCs as these are dumb and predictable all the times.
2) Some MMORPGs go as far as providing target share between players on server side, etc. So people can work on same target. Which is handy for boss fights, etc. This resembles cooperative gameplay a lot.

[o11c]

There is a HUGE difference between cooperative multiplayer and massively multiplayer. It's not worth comparing them at *all*.

Not really true.
1) Properly designed MMORPGs usually expect serious level of cooperation between players.

Missing the point. I don't deny that cooperation is a part of MMORPGs. But competition also is.

In a single-player or coop game, if you cheat, you're only cheating yourself. This is not true in TMW.

[SriNitayanda]

You're not just the Cops and Judges now, you're also the Congress. So, gone are the days when you can say: "Sorry, I don't write the rules, I just enforce them." Technically, you may not have written a rule, this week, this month, or this year, but it's your job, your responsibility, now.

First of all i dont see how relevant it is for this case, i dont think GM's need to think after or before every warning they give whether this behavior or the other needs to be defined by rules, or that rules regarding this behavior needs to be changed. Auto follow/multiboxing rule was decided cause of the reasons wombat already gave. some players i know (me also), got similar warnings about this behavior, some got official warning (written in the gm logs) and some got unofficial warning (not written in the gm log). in this case it was not even an official warning. i didn't see any other person who got this warning blame the GM's or the rule, or being so sensitive about the GM's comparing them to botters. The GM didn't compare the person to botter, he just got a warning for breaking the rules (not even an official warning). The GM in this case did act as cop and very sensitive judge (probably cause she knew straelyn is not a troublemaker), like i said the punishment or warning could be worse.
you always jump to these conversations, not knowing all the details, you barely play if at all you dont know the ppl who play this game or the GM's, but still you judge them like you got a better perspective.

Comparing the management of MMO or MOG or whatever to the management of state is silly. Well in general state is state and tmw is hmm just MOG or MMO or whatever you want to call it. why not compare tmw to most organizations, corporations smaller buisness's, NGO's, you name it, all got somekind of hierarchical structure with smaller group at the top who actually decides the course of management. people who advance in the ladder and get to positions of power in these kind of structure usually do it through skills or connections with the top management. there is no seperation of power and no democratic votes. manager who decides to advance an employee doesn't need the democratic approval of the employee's from his department. top management in corporations, which is usually divided from ownership of the corporation, usually decides the course of management in order to satisfy the stockholders... anyway you get my point, tmw is not a state, it is not a corporation either so comparing the management structure of tmw to states or corporations is just silly.

Yes we got semi democratic vote for GM's (any tmwc member got a veto power). but certainly we dont have a seperation of powers, or other characteristics of democratic states and i really dont think tmwc members need to learn political science in order to think about better management structure for the community. we need their minds focused on development. we as community can be the monitoring body if you will and express our concerns about the course tmw is taking, if we think it is going the wrong way or can be done better. btw any player who wants to contribute and have the skill and will to contribute can become a dev and enter tmwc eventually, so if you really want to have even more power on deciding the course of tmw, most of the nerds here can.

So ok i take your point about the GM's who can make rules now, but i think they already pushed in the past some changes in the rules, which were community driven. i dont think any of them will make rules to hurt the community, i am pretty sure when they'll make rules they'll hold their evil desires and think about the community. after all they were chosen by the community so it shows this people can be trusted to some degree (sneaky veryape i'll never trust him).

[Silent Dawn]

just for the record, all I did is put each account on one of my laptops, side by side, and had straelyn follow sherlocke (who i played with), and ran around tmw shootin monsters, having straelyn heal sherlocke (who was using banshee bow). I didn't bot, botting requires code. I was literally switchin back and forth.

Exactly.

Even if, from my observations, you were not active with both chars at the same time, dont you think you were taking advantage of the autofollow option by healing your archer whenever your hp was low? I did, and that's why i showed up to talk to you.

I was insulted by this accusation; aren't insults against the rules? I say, ban the gm for her insult.

[23:17] Silent Dawn: hello
[23:17] sherlocke: hey
[23:17] straelyn: hi
[23:17] Silent Dawn: sherlocke aka. straelyn, you cannot be autofollowing

*wonders where the insult is*
Not to mention that you gave me no chance to explain you the situation since you just logged off.

[Chay]

farewell straelyn, keep your head up - the world is tough