Question about multiple character login

[deepthought]

Just to clear up, although SD said that I never brought any of my mules to Cindy cave. I live in other side of world. If two of my characters are online, I have bad ping. I only login with two characters if only I need exchange stuff.

How about this ? I have two characters going to somewhere using navigation at same time. Is this also boting ?

[veryape]

Just to clear up, although SD said that I never brought any of my mules to Cindy cave. I live in other side of world. If two of my characters are online, I have bad ping. I only login with two characters if only I need exchange stuff.

How about this ? I have two characters going to somewhere using navigation at same time. Is this also boting ?

Yes, auto-walking / auto-following if you are not controlling the chars by hand is considered botting.

If you have two characters that are active at the same time you are botting. That is the rule of thumb judgement at least I make. However because we like to keep things complicated we don't care if someone is autofollowing their own alts in town just for fun etc - not because it isn't against the letter of the law but because it isn't against the sentiment of the law.

Those interpretations is made by GM's as it they see things happen. I've myself told people to stop using autofollow to always have a healing mage at hand etc. We gm's discuss matters that we feel uncertain about with the other gm's before we act and we try ask advice from eachother. We are here to make the game fair and fun for everyone.

So if a GM asks you not to do something please listen to them, we are trying to behave to the best of our capabilities and we don't think it is an automatic success-story to smack someone with the banhammer.

Sorry for not making things crystal clear - but I think those are considerations we make.

If someone is clearly botting to gain an unfair advantage though we will strike down to the letter of the law.

[deepthought]

I never auto follow. What I do is going to different places using two different characters using navigation while I do dailies. They should at least relax the rule on using navigation. Its a very handy way to get to places without using arrow keys always.

[Okurwieniec]

If someone have two chars on two separated accounts, then he is unable to past items from one to another using storage, so he have to break rule to be able to do so. Is it possible to make shareable storage for multiple accounts? It would be cool.

[Cassy]

If someone have two chars on two separated accounts, then he is unable to past items from one to another using storage, so he have to break rule to be able to do so. Is it possible to make shareable storage for multiple accounts? It would be cool.

It's not forbidden to have two characters online at the same time
E.g. I'm online with two characters a lot, but of course not only me.

The questionable task is when you use two characters in fights.
At least that's the part I care of because IMO this is super unfair and not the goal of a MMORPG.
Others also find topics like auto following questionable.

*sighs*
I think we need clearer rules here as well...

[SriNitayanda]

Idk i think the rules are simple 2 or more active characters at the same time. while controlling 2 characters at the same time is not always literal botting, its still against the rules.

[thusmark]

I think we need clearer rules here as well...

There seem to be arguments sprouting up about gameplay, which seem to end in 'clearer rules are needed'. Just want to say that not every small case should require a rule which can be pointed to. The rules right now are pretty clear. When the rules are hazy, like in this case, I know that GMs warn any offenders. A repeat would obviously deserve a ban. Too many rules reduce flexibility. I'd prefer to let the GMs handle the situation as they see fit.

Any decision on a case like this will obviously be situational. A clear rule can't really be defined. And, if one is defined, it might actually end up making some harmless things illegal.

Just my opinion though.

[Ledmitz]

I certainly hope it is not against the rules or I have been breaking them and I'd love to be informed of any changes to current ones if they do change. When I round up mobs with Ledmitz, Mystic(my alt) will heal and betsanc Ledmitz if no one else is around to do it. Ledmitz is completely stationary and not attacking any mobs when Mystic betsancs Lemitz. I always make sure I left shift to stop attack and no target (in my cfg) or they are both in a place with no mobs. However, I sometimes think that eliminating multiboxing all together would be a great solution, but then I think of all the inconveniences that ppl would face, like not being able to move items from one account to another and ppl that run shops would simply cease to run shops... who wants to sit online, stationary, all day? I know evolonline does not allow multiboxing at all, but that makes me wonder if solutions to these problems have already been addressed there or not.

[veryape]

I certainly hope it is not against the rules or I have been breaking them and I'd love to be informed of any changes to current ones if they do change. When I round up mobs with Ledmitz, Mystic(my alt) will heal and betsanc Ledmitz if no one else is around to do it. Ledmitz is completely stationary and not attacking any mobs when Mystic betsancs Lemitz. I always make sure I left shift to stop attack and no target (in my cfg) or they are both in a place with no mobs. However, I sometimes think that eliminating multiboxing all together would be a great solution, but then I think of all the inconveniences that ppl would face, like not being able to move items from one account to another and ppl that run shops would simply cease to run shops... who wants to sit online, stationary, all day? I know evolonline does not allow multiboxing at all, but that makes me wonder if solutions to these problems have already been addressed there or not.

As long as only one char is active at a time it is not against the rules. It is really simple. If more than one char is active from the same IP a GM will make a botcheck and see that those two chars can move independently and on a GM's command. If so it is proven that they were not automated. People that share IP most certainly has been checked a few times for this.

If one char is inactive while the other does something there is no problem. Letting the first char be inactive for a while and at the same time taking control of the other to do something (such as healing the first char or betsancing it) is not against the rules. Is this clear enough?

[Cassy]

Personally I'm not happy with this.
Participating in a fight, which also includes supportive actions like healing, #betsanc or attracting mobs (e.g. the tank-poltergeist-strategy), or taking advantage of a fight* (e.g. Daily Points) should only be allowed with one character.
It's not a standard to allow multiple logins at the same time so TMW is already user-friendly to allow that, but allowing to take advantage in fights is too much in my opinion.
*Exception: EXP sharing in parties since we cannot prove this.

I already mentioned that this is not the goal of an MMORPG, in fact it harms the real goals.
Players should ask others for support, hunt in groups, build connections/parties/guilds this way, in other words growing a community.
Our lazy town sitters (which includes me ) should move their bums out of Hurnscald, especially to help others.

Personally I even enjoy it when someone asks me for help. Gives me a reason to actually play.

Well this is just my opinion


Btw: we shouldn't directly connect this with botting and answer every point with "this is botting and therefore forbidden, this is not botting and therefore allowed".
The multiply logins topic is somewhat related to botting for sure but they are still two different topics.

[Ledmitz]

If one char is inactive while the other does something there is no problem.

Participating in a fight, which also includes supportive actions like healing, #betsanc or attracting mobs (e.g. the tank-poltergeist-strategy), or taking advantage of a fight* (e.g. Daily Points) should only be allowed with one character.

It's the Daily Points part here that has me puzzled... You mean I shouldn't have one character do all the hunting and then pass off the wings? It makes me wonder if then if I should have a shop. Passing off the items to be sold elsewhere and then transferring the GP, is the same type of advantage. I have to say though... I agree with your viewpoint in what people should do, but I'm just not a big fan of too many rules, especially when they could take away some of the fun aspects of the game. Besides, after the no-follow rule, I think things are already strict enough.

[veryape]

Personally I'm not happy with this.
Participating in a fight, which also includes supportive actions like healing, #betsanc or attracting mobs (e.g. the tank-poltergeist-strategy), or taking advantage of a fight* (e.g. Daily Points) should only be allowed with one character.

IMO, this is hard for gm's to enforce, if we decide that poltergeist-tanking is a bad thing maybe we should change the mob-ai so that it switches to the target that last hit it every 15 seconds or something. The daily points thing.. I don't personally see it as a problem, sure people can make money like this but it takes a lot of work, and what if i give wings to a noob, is that unfair?

Fairness as a concept in any game come really close to politics, and that gets really hard to uphold. IMO we need a few clear-cut rules, not just for the players sake but also because we don't want to get in a situation as GM's where it is our judgement calls that is all we have to go by. We need to be able to point at a rule as the reason why we act - not our feelings.

That is at least my opinion on the matter.

[Cassy]

You mean I shouldn't have one character do all the hunting and then pass off the wings?

what if i give wings to a noob, is that unfair?

Nah, that would count then for every single other quest and their costs as well, not only daily quests
With "taking advantage of a fight" I mean directly doing so with an inactive character, e.g. this:

As per my knowledge silent dawn mentioned that its okay to bring in your mules to Cindy runs and make them sit at corner just to earn daily points.

IMO that's not very fair.
I actually even thought it's forbidden since I once saw a GM warning a player to log off his second inactive char in Candor.

if we decide that poltergeist-tanking is a bad thing maybe we should change the mob-ai

I said that a long time ago already (also the ai of stationary mobs which will never attack you if you go a few steps back after hitting them for the first time and then continue hitting them) but back then I was told that mob ai is a very scary and complicated thing.
Of course I believe that, dunno if something changed after seeing hercules code.

IMO we need a few clear-cut rules, not just for the players sake but also because we don't want to get in a situation as GM's where it is our judgement calls that is all we have to go by. We need to be able to point at a rule as the reason why we act - not our feelings.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of too many rules as well, but this is my main concern why I keep discussing this.
In this thread we see that this topic is still a very unclear thing.

[deepthought]

Personally I even enjoy it when someone asks me for help. Gives me a reason to actually play.

I will remember this in next illia run i host.

[deepthought]

if we decide that poltergeist-tanking is a bad thing maybe we should change the mob-ai so that it switches to the target that last hit it every 15 seconds or something.

Something like this happened yesterday. I was hunting yetis in nivalis caves. Genesis is tanking and he's taking hard hits from yeti although he's level 99 tank mage with 80 vit and 75 luck and 145 def. He took 100, 45 70 damages..