My Resignation from HMC, "Groups" and "Los Viscerales"

[sugarcorgit]

I asked Trelos he was in whispers wombat and semi playing on that screen shot...
I'm sure he needed bugs legs and slimes. I call it just laid back and lazy playing and you call it botting. His drops were not urgent to him for apparent reasons.

sugar... and I didnt have to ask him but just for you I did got it now Wombat?

[Wombat]

Sugarcorgit, why are you trying to convince me that Trelos wasn't botting? I sat there for an hour while he (and three others) botted. However, this issue was already resolved before the GM system was in place and Trelos was just one of many people in HMC botting in this prior period. I do not want Trelos to get in trouble and hope the best for him. From what I know he doesn't bot now and hasn't for a long time, if that should mean anything to you.

We both know that people have botted, the context of why we are talking about it is because I am unhappy with botting and hypocritical zealotry. HMC did not stand strong against botters, but they will stand strong against dual memberships. HMC will theaten membership to leave for doing game legal, but competitive actions but HMC will do nothing about membership that are known to bot.

While it makes sense to have a double standard for reporting botter among guild members, the leadership should of had no tolerance for botting. Instead HMC has offered a blase` attitude to botting and a quick defence of botters that are friends to the HMC elite.

I will stress that I do not have a strict position on botting and support GMs offering character resets as it is currently practiced for those caught botting. I am not going to go on witch hunts for botters, but I do prefer to hunt in areas that are bot free because bots ruin my play experience.

Read my letter again, botters are only part of the problem. Anyways, I'd prefer we leave this as my last word in regards to Trelos. I did want to throw a dig at him, but not drag him through the mud.

[Black Don]

Sugarcorgit, why are you trying to convince me that Trelos wasn't botting? I sat there for an hour while he (and three others) botted. However, this issue was already resolved before the GM system was in place and Trelos was just one of many people in HMC botting in this prior period. I do not want Trelos to get in trouble and hope the best for him. From what I know he doesn't bot now and hasn't for a long time, if that should mean anything to you.

We both know that people have botted, the context of why we are talking about it is because I am unhappy with botting and hypocritical zealotry. HMC did not stand strong against botters, but they will stand strong against dual memberships. HMC will theaten membership to leave for doing game legal, but competitive actions but HMC will do nothing about membership that are known to bot.

While it makes sense to have a double standard for reporting botter among guild members, the leadership should of had no tolerance for botting. Instead HMC has offered a blase` attitude to botting and a quick defence of botters that are friends to the HMC elite.

I will stress that I do not have a strict position on botting and support GMs offering character resets as it is currently practiced for those caught botting. I am not going to go on witch hunts for botters, but I do prefer to hunt in areas that are bot free because bots ruin my play experience.

Read my letter again, botters are only part of the problem. Anyways, I'd prefer we leave this as my last word in regards to Trelos. I did want to throw a dig at him, but not drag him through the mud.

This whole statement is pointless. One might ask why?
1. Why is it up to the Guild police the game? The GMs seem to have a pretty good handle on it.
2. Why is it hypocritical? Botting is very hard to prove unless you see with your own eyes. Hence why we now have more active GMs who have been cracking down on it now.
3. To claim you don't want to drag someones name threw the mud and do it any way is the very meaning of hypocritical. He has never been caught when tons of others have, so anything you say is "hear say" at best.
4. You say you your not on some sort of bot witch hunt yet if its the HMC you seem to get all upset and make big posts. I have seen people do bad things in the past and they were HMC members. They were kick out and eventually aloud to rejoin because as far as I can see the HMC is not about punishing people for what they done. The Clan tends to forgive over time. This is because the HMC is also a social group that builds relationships(one of their founding ideals). I also see it as the main reason most other more selfishly aligned Clans tend to fall apart in their wake.

[Wombat]

Black Don, yes, it's not up to the guild to police the game. It is up to the guild to police their own membership when their membership breaks guild rules. Also the GMs before the new GM system weren't able to handle all the botting that was occurring.

Its hypocritical because HMC membership, before the new GM system, were quite often the ones reporting botters, but not their own. Instead, when someone would allege HMC botting or offer evidence that HMC members could be botting, HMC membership would simply defend or rationalize their member's actions. There is no attempt to uncover a potential breach of guild ethics in this approach, but rather to hide or cover up possible wrong doing based on their own rules.

I did not want to keep bringing Trelos up because his actions weren't a primary motivating factor in my decision. As I said, I did want to dig at him (for botting), but I don't want to make this thread about him because his botting issue was already resolved as far as the game is concerned.

Also, I am forming new social relationships. Already our group has a lot of attention and decent participation with very little promotions or event organizing. LV members run into each other in the pit and throughout the surrounding areas of Tulimshar almost every day. HMC does do a good job keeping good social relationships going, but this doesn't mean selfishly aligned groups can't.

[Saardokaar]

wow.....losers.

my toon is an entire 2 days old and already level 28. I never picked this game up till yesterday.

Anyone who feels a need to "Bot" to get ahead in this game might want to look into Hello Kitty Island Adventures. I hear it might be a bit more your speed.

[Black Don]

Wombat you make alot of claims and offer no proof, since you are the head of a competing "Group" it puts you motives at question as to why you contently attack and slander the HMC.

[Wombat]

Black Don, this is the thread on "my resignation". This is not a thread about proving bots. I wrote my letter and I stand by it. Read the original post of this article and understand that I am replying to others on the many reasons I decided to leave. If you don't want to take the time to actually read what I wrote, don't take the time to comment.

[Black Don]

Black Don, this is the thread on "my resignation". This is not a thread about proving bots. I wrote my letter and I stand by it. Read the original post of this article and understand that I am replying to others on the many reasons I decided to leave. If you don't want to take the time to actually read what I wrote, don't take the time to comment.

I'm not commenting about bots. I said your slandering the HMC for personal gain.

Here is what you wrote in your first post

On several ethical matters, I feel the HMC has failed in multiple areas that have lead me to this path. I challenge HMC to do better and exemplify the meaning of "Holy". While I strive for combat purity with honor, the level of tolerance towards rule breaking taints my perception of what the HMC should be. I do agree with tolerance, but the clan has failed to "out" membership caught botting, especially when that member has befriended the leadership. I have personally caught Trelos botting, for example and I outted him. Tarax was questioned about botting outside the clan, but none of the leadership made an issue of this. Even after rocketnick was banned, I was the only one that wanted to put some thought into this developing problem.

I had no problem with that hence no comments from me. But I have a hard time finding the purity and honor of saying thing like

HMC has ignored botting of its own membership or has looked the other way when caught. People caught botting receive "warnings" from HMC when I checked into the matter while still a member, but to my knowledge, I was the only member concerned with the botting going on within HMC. With the new court forum and gm system in place, this will be less of a problem overall, but as sugarcorgit stated, HMC is its own club and should enforce its rules internally if it is to mean anything. If the "holy" in "Holy Mana Clan" doesn't mean anything about striving for a better game ethic, I suggest you change your name, because it sounds like y'all should be paladins.

with out any real proof your just slandering people but you continue to justify your actions by saying

Of course they are inconclusive, it was not the purpose of my letter, nor my resurfacing of the picture, to expose Trelos to being banned. I'll again state that both Trelos and I know what occurred in the Bot Cave that day. Your attempt to throw doubt on what I said might matter to GMs, but not to me.

which goes to prove my point in my last post

Wombat you make alot of claims and offer no proof, since you are the head of a competing "Group" it puts you motives at question as to why you contently attack and slander the HMC.

So when you make accusations and make no attempt at proving them as a Leader of another "Group", "Clan" trying to attract members from the same player pool. It looks like your trying nothing but defame the name of the HMC so you can get more people to join your "what ever you want to call it". And this is not the only thread your doing this in next time I will pull from all the threads where you do this.

[Wombat]

This is my letter of resignation. I submitted it to the forum "for the record". I restate myself because I am explaining my actions. Trelos botted, I will repeat that until I am dead, so this issue is done. Tarax botted, even his own buddies will testify he did so (but only to test botting...yeah, right). Rocketnick botted, I was indeed the only one to mention Rocketnicks banning and the ramifications it might hold for HMC.

Black Don, I left the Holy Mana Clan on purpose. I was not kicked out, though I was threatened with loss of membership due to my actions in the arena over Halloween. My mentioning of the botters should not be removed from my appreciation for the leadership on an individual level.

My letter should not be removed from the difference in approach to pvp in the arena, which was the instigation for my resignation. I mentioned "crybabies", which was the greater reason to leave, as I will not compromise to people that cry over every little thing. Note that I am talking about people that cry to HMC leadership while I was a member. The crybaby lobby in any game is annoying.

I am indeed the leader of another group, but this group is not exclusive to guilds. I organize a fighting league and people want to act like it holds some sort of "political" value. My UFC is not comparable to the HMC's Anglican Church. LV is not at odds with any individual or guild except on an individual basis. I neither gain nor lose by having a member list, I gain and lose when I can't get a crowd of people together for an enjoyable power leveling hour or pvp match. The quantity of members means nothing to me. The quality of experience my organizing generates is what I value.

[Black Don]

Black Don, I left the Holy Mana Clan on purpose. I was not kicked out, though I was threatened with loss of membership due to my actions in the arena over Halloween. My mentioning of the botters should not be removed from my appreciation for the leadership on an individual level. [\quote]

Please quote were I ever said you were kicked out. I don't care about how or why you left the HMC.

I am indeed the leader of another group, but this group is not exclusive to guilds. I organize a fighting league and people want to act like it holds some sort of "political" value. My UFC is not comparable to the HMC's Anglican Church. LV is not at odds with any individual or guild except on an individual basis. I neither gain nor lose by having a member list, I gain and lose when I can't get a crowd of people together for an enjoyable power leveling hour or pvp match. The quantity of members means nothing to me. The quality of experience my organizing generates is what I value.

Yet you still slander and name call the HMC every chance you get. You have referred to the "cry baby lobby". Yet you come in here and whine about hypocrisy and the justifications of the HMC leadership(yet you still respect them ). At what point do you become that which you say you hated the most?

[Wombat]

Slander is saying untrue things. While "libel" my be more applicable to this accusation, I am offering nothing false in what I say. Black Don, I really have nothing to offer you to make you feel better about the situation.

Crybaby lobby is my personal opinion of people that cry over little things instead of taking on the challenge of overcoming an opponent. HMC has a handful of this type of player and the leadership is willing to listen to them. Its not the worst thing in the world. I will say I am biased towards my group that doesn't pander to this type of player. Is that bad?

[evadem]

Instead of a Crybaby Lobby I suggest we make a forum subsection for Wombat to share all of his inciteful and unbiased opinions about the game and those in it. We could call it Wombo's Whammies or perhaps Wombo's Whimsical Witticisms. Just a thought.

Should we vote on this? Perhaps a poll would be a good idea.

[Black Don]

Slander is saying untrue things. While "libel" my be more applicable to this accusation, I am offering nothing false in what I say. Black Don, I really have nothing to offer you to make you feel better about the situation.

Its on thing to give an opinion its quite another to claim it as truth. Takes quite the ego to do so.

[Wombat]

Black Don, you have made an accusation that I have "slandered" HMC when this is not the case. You then take a step back and attempt to claim that my interpretation of an event is an "opinion". An interpretation of fact is not "opinion" and I have proof than an event occurred. It is not my "opinion" that Trelos botted. I sat there and watched him for an hour and I said multiple things to him over that hour. I collected evidence for placing a report for the GMs to take care of.

Trelos could not of been whispering to others for an hour when he was attacking every closest creature to him for that duration. Talking causes pauses in your attack speed if anything substantial is being said. Trelos could not be found guilty for his alleged botting. This does not make what I say suddenly an opinion.

You want to keep dragging this on Black Don? You aren't impressing me and your attempts to lawyer for HMC have produced nothing but a bunch of hot air.

[Black Don]

Black Don, you have made an accusation that I have "slandered" HMC when this is not the case. You then take a step back and attempt to claim that my interpretation of an event is an "opinion". An interpretation of fact is not "opinion" and I have proof than an event occurred. It is not my "opinion" that Trelos botted. I sat there and watched him for an hour and I said multiple things to him over that hour. I collected evidence for placing a report for the GMs to take care of.

Trelos could not of been whispering to others for an hour when he was attacking every closest creature to him for that duration. Talking causes pauses in your attack speed if anything substantial is being said. Trelos could not be found guilty for his alleged botting. This does not make what I say suddenly an opinion.

You want to keep dragging this on Black Don? You aren't impressing me and your attempts to lawyer for HMC have produced nothing but a bunch of hot air.

Yet Trelos has never been banned. To say you have proof and never show it then it is just and opinion until you do. I don't lawyer for anyone I just don't like people who make claims that are meant to defame others then don't back them up.