Events / Event Coordinator?

[Crush]

The abuse potential of these commands for personal use could be reduced by not giving the event coordinators the permissions on their main account. When each event coordinator has a separate account for events, the temptation to use their event commands for cheating with their normal characters is greatly reduced.

Also remember that all GM commands are logged, so any use of them outside of scheduled events can be easily detected.

[Chicka-Maria]

@tux i never used the @warp command. And people have made successful events in the past without the commands. The commands are just more convenient to host events. People have hosted pvp events, drop partys, trivias and the hide and go seek event without these.

I do wonder if its possible for a temporary gm level change as someone who posted before said (forget who). So it would prevent people from abusing it but still letting them use it for certain days for events.

Regards,

[Nard]

The abuse potential of these commands for personal use could be reduced by not giving the event coordinators the permissions on their main account. When each event coordinator has a separate account for events, the temptation to use their event commands for cheating with their normal characters is greatly reduced.

Also remember that all GM commands are logged, so any use of them outside of scheduled events can be easily detected.

I totally agree with that Idea. I even already suggested it could also be the case for developers, consecutively of past abuses.

Nard

[Nard]

@tux i never used the @warp command. And people have made successful events in the past without the commands. The commands are just more convenient to host events. People have hosted pvp events, drop partys, trivias and the hide and go seek event without these.

You used it (have a look to GM log)

I do wonder if its possible for a temporary gm level change as someone who posted before said (forget who). So it would prevent people from abusing it but still letting them use it for certain days for events.

I did. Maybe this possibility should also be used to prevent developer abuse too. Aren't they supposed to use their @commands only for development activity? or when no GM is online?

[Chicka-Maria]

@tux i never used the @warp command. And people have made successful events in the past without the commands. The commands are just more convenient to host events. People have hosted pvp events, drop partys, trivias and the hide and go seek event without these.

You used it (have a look to GM log)

No I never used @warp for events. please recheck your sources.

Regards,

[Narus]

I did. Maybe this possibility should also be used to prevent developer abuse too. Aren't they supposed to use their @commands only for development activity? or when no GM is online?

You are correct devs should ONLY use their commands for dev activities. All their commands are logged too and they SHOULD use @l and @t to clarify what are they doing the same way a GM does. Is not a mandatory thing for every single command we use but a necessary thing.

And answering the second question: a dev is not a GM, They cannot do the GM job, so they cannot use the commands to do our job when we are not online, even as we appreciate their help. As you know dear the division of powers was state to help this, the game is better when we have GMs doing gm work and Devs doing dev job, the few times those roles were blured things did not work out so well

[Chicka-Maria]

I did. Maybe this possibility should also be used to prevent developer abuse too. Aren't they supposed to use their @commands only for development activity? or when no GM is online?

You are correct devs should ONLY use their commands for dev activities. All their commands are logged too and they SHOULD use @l and @t to clarify what are they doing the same way a GM does. Is not a mandatory thing for every single command we use but a necessary thing.

when I did dev commands for developer work I did use the @l, but as the same for GM's I did not use the @l for hosting events ( i think the @broadcast clarified that anyway). events are not a gm job or a developer job but I thought it would be nice for players to enjoy an event so then I made one with the help of @broadcast, @hide and @goto. Players enjoyed it and nobody was "abused".

Also: Attached a .txt file to show what commands I used on the event day. (also shows I did not use the @warp command to host).

Regards,
Chicka

[Nard]

No I never used @warp for events. please recheck your sources.

the original sentence was:

@tux i never used the @warp command

for events you did not, but you used it.

[2012-06-04 04:10:08] 009-1.gat(48,37) Prsm(2102937) : @invisible
[2012-06-04 04:10:08] 009-1.gat(48,37) Prsm(2102937) : @hide
[2012-06-04 05:29:33] 012-1.gat(122,135) Chicka-Maria(2163184) : @warp 012-1
[2012-06-04 05:29:53] 012-1.gat(122,135) Chicka-Maria(2163184) : @l warping to the blossom npc so i can update the wiki
[2012-06-04 05:30:37] 012-1.gat(49,125) Chicka-Maria(2163184) : @warp 012-1 gat 36, 99
[2012-06-04 10:07:25] 009-1.gat(49,37) mrgrey(2096247) : @invisible
[2012-06-04 10:07:27] 009-1.gat(50,37) mrgrey(2096247) : @hugo
[2012-06-04 10:07:29] 048-2.gat(59,44) mrgrey(2096247) : @hugo

source: GM log 2012-06:http://server.themanaworld.org/gm/gm.log.2012-06

I could also quote other funny testing that you could easily do on test server, for example:

[2012-07-01 17:17:26] 009-1.gat(47,37) Narus(2121285) : @visible
[2012-07-01 17:17:31] 009-1.gat(47,37) Narus(2121285) : @hide
[2012-07-01 17:31:04] 009-1.gat(47,37) Narus(2121285) : @broadcast There will be a trivia event hosted by Nooby in five minutes in Hurnscald
[2012-07-01 17:35:38] 009-1.gat(47,37) Narus(2121285) : @broadcast the event is about to start come to Hursncald now!!
[2012-07-01 17:49:00] 009-1.gat(54,45) mrgrey(2096247) : @warp 009-1
[2012-07-01 22:34:40] 012-3.gat(449,62) Chicka-Maria(2163184) : @broadcast Yoshi is hosting a candor so grab your armor and weapons then head down!
[2012-07-01 22:34:46] 012-3.gat(449,62) Chicka-Maria(2163184) : @die
[2012-07-01 22:36:17] 008-1.gat(116,30) Chicka-Maria(2163184) : @goto Belgar
[2012-07-01 22:38:42] 014-1.gat(86,91) Chicka-Maria(2163184) : @die
[2012-07-01 22:38:51] 009-2.gat(92,23) Chicka-Maria(2163184) : @goto Belgar
[2012-07-01 22:39:37] 018-3.gat(103,96) Chicka-Maria(2163184) : @die
[2012-07-01 22:42:50] 018-3.gat(63,59) Chicka-Maria(2163184) : @goto Belgar
[2012-07-01 22:43:10] 013-3.gat(110,38) Chicka-Maria(2163184) : @hide
[2012-07-01 22:43:40] 018-3.gat(74,128) Chicka-Maria(2163184) : @hide
[2012-07-01 22:44:52] 018-3.gat(68,128) Chicka-Maria(2163184) : @l testing level in scorpion cave with belgar
[2012-07-01 23:33:10] 027-1.gat(60,38) Prsm(2102937) : @hugo
[2012-07-01 23:33:16] 031-3.gat(297,230) Prsm(2102937) : @hugo
[2012-07-01 23:33:21] 009-1.gat(52,45) Prsm(2102937) : @hugo
[2012-07-01 23:33:27] 031-3.gat(291,229) Prsm(2102937) : @linus

source:http://server.themanaworld.org/gm/gm.log.2012-07

Then again, Chicka, you are perfectly right when you say:

People have hosted pvp events, drop partys, trivias and the hide and go seek event without these.

they also didn't use @hide @goto....

[Chicka-Maria]

I was telling tux i wasnt using @warp for events, i thought you got that since we were Clearly talking about Events. We were also talking about Event Coordinators sorry if You misunderstood. And yes i used the @warp for dev purposes as would any dev. as for the other "source" you posted i cant run two clients to go on the test server as well as check someones report on the caves or else my computer heats up and i did log (@l) yes as i said for DEV purposes. If your going to argue please have some logic in what your saying. Ill not be posting again because this is just another spam thread your starting.

Regards,

[Nard]

I was telling tux i wasnt using @warp for events, i thought you got that since we were Clearly talking about Events. We were also talking about Event Coordinators sorry if You misunderstood. And yes i used the @warp for dev purposes as would any dev. as for the other "source" you posted i cant run two clients to go on the test server as well as check someones report on the caves or else my computer heats up and i did log (@l) yes as i said for DEV purposes. If your going to argue please have some logic in what your saying. Ill not be posting again because this is just another spam thread your starting.

I am sorry for my really bad english, once again you point it out . If I understood well you were saying that an event coordinator didn't need warp to organize events, and at that time you hadn't organized events while you were a developer if I remind well. The discussion went about possible abuse from an eventual event coordinator. I saw, in the past abuse from at least two developers (none of them was you), thus my remark. Concerning the @warp thing I just pointed a slight error from your side, there is no need of a drama. Anyway Event coordinator is GM level 50, developer is GM level 40, if dev has a command, event coordinator has and it is good as it is in my opinion: a developer has to stay a developer and is not an event coordinator.

We all noticed the emergency of the test you performed and that you @l-ogged the reasons of your testing . Running two clients on different (close) servers would be a bad idea anyway: the client data maybe different and you would not be sure that the client use the right content. I experienced it sometimes. Thus when testing I am only connected to the test server.

This discussion points out the big interest of Crush's proposition about separate accounts. Maybe it could be extended to GMs too or even to administrators: more difficulty for bots to automatize disconnection, perhaps less chat spamming to them, more difficulties to track a particular GM presence, less difficulties for GM to control their friends but recovered ability to play with their chars. The bad: player/dev-GM-administration in impersonal and less friendly, perhaps difficulties may appear in case of complaints.

[mistergrey]

Pity I haven't checked this, or I might have cut down some of the replying here.

Nard: You invited drama, when you went to the trouble of pointing out GM logs just to show Chicka's error (which, while I see that she stated it "I never used @warp", in the context of this topic it does makes sense). Between that, and being sure to point out her other command uses that you found unnecessary , you are somewhat provoking her by bringing this up in a topic that has nothing to do with developers' command use (besides, of course, how that relates to event coordinators, which posting a developer's command usage does not relate to). I say that not to point a finger, but to explain how that kind of response will bring serious discussions off-topic.

As for the commands...
Developers, like GMs, are expected to use @l, but not for every command used, and context is considered. I see no reason why a developer should need to log every single thing though, when it's something like hosting a small event. I myself do not log these, unless I plan to use an unusual command (especially since broadcasting events pretty much does the same as @l otherwise). As well, if anyone checked other GM logs, they would see developers using commands much more frequently without @l, such as @jump, or @goto on various people. That is not necessarily good, and I don't like the stalking potential there, but it seems to be acceptable command use so I see no issue there.
PS - I may not use @kill and revive (aside from occasionally murdering Big Crunch, of course <3), but I see absolutely no problem with killing oneself with @die, and I don't begrudge a developer using the same for a laugh. It sure beats scissoring yourself to death (bet you've never read that sentence before, in a serious context).

As for separate accounts...
For GMs, I do not think this is wise, as players vote in a player they wish to see as a GM, not necessarily one of their alts. A GM could have the character's level and such on another account, but like a reset I believe this does not include everything, such as quest status (I could be wrong here though). Developers, are given their choice like GMs, and this seems to work alright for the most part. For an event coordinator, however... assuming it could be any player, I think a separate account is ideal, for the same reasons Crush has stated. If, say, a developer were chosen, I'd see no reason, as it would be maybe an extra command or two on top of their current GM level, and not be worth the trouble unless the player asks for a separate account for it.

[Nard]

in the context of this topic it does makes sense

sorry mrgrey it didn't at the time were it was written.

As for the commands...
Developers, like GMs, are expected to use @l

Developers are very different from GMs who have some player and administration recognition with their polls. We were speaking about Event Coordinators, their function, abilities, way of nomination... Chicka quoted herself as an example, thus opened herself to the critic, I would not have quoted these GM logs in any other context, I just found these "tests" quite funny and just worth a smile, if not a laugh.

As for separate accounts...
For GMs, I do not think this is wise, as players vote in a player they wish to see as a GM, not necessarily one of their alts. A GM could have the character's level and such on another account, but like a reset I believe this does not include everything, such as quest status (I could be wrong here though). Developers, are given their choice like GMs, and this seems to work alright for the most part. For an event coordinator, however... assuming it could be any player, I think a separate account is ideal, for the same reasons Crush has stated. If, say, a developer were chosen, I'd see no reason, as it would be maybe an extra command or two on top of their current GM level, and not be worth the trouble unless the player asks for a separate account for it.

Becoming a developer is a matter of will and game's mechanism or graphic skillness. It doesn't imply that developers have any ability to be fair, or good moderators. The five yellow swords above the avatar when "tmwAthena Content Developer" mean even less. Their GM40 status goes with the dev cap and git repo push ability. It is intended for development use exclusively ( If I am wrong, please correct me). With a few exceptions (2 and a wrong use), I never saw any of the other major developers and administrators play with the @ commands in game. Thus I still think any developer must not use any at command, and more if one or two GMs are present. @die is obviously a negligible thing even if it cannot be used by a regular player which a developer is. I could admit that broadcast could be used in case of GM absence.
Event coordinator seems even more sensitive to me as it requires some of the abilities of GMs. I think, if it is decided to have another one, that he/she is submitted to the same rules as GMs. In any case it must not be "any" player. There are no more and no less reasons to have a separate account for it than for any other GM status. I already said the advantages I see about separate accounts, there is no need to repeat them. I know some disagreements come with it but if there is only one...

[mistergrey]

First off - Whether Chicka quoted herself or not, it did not make your opinions on what commands she uses relevant to the topic here. She only said what commands she did not need for events she hosted; I don't see how this was opening herself for critique about what commands she does and does not use, or what commands a developer should be using.

About developers using commands: I think that developers earn their access, even if in a very different way from GMs. I also have no trouble acting against any developer that wishes to have a big ego about this and abuse their power. I invite you to take a long look through the GM logs, for devs using commands for much more useless reasons than broadcasting an event, or killing themselves in town. There are a few, and older devs seem more prone to this. I can't see any reason why the few devs given GM access on the main server cannot use any commands in "non-dev" capacities, the same way that GMs do the same thing - especially now that their kick command has been removed.

Developers do work and earn access - and believe me, it's not so simple as "oh thanks for that item, here are commands to abuse people with". They can indeed be abusive still, but as Crush said, every command is logged, and with people watching the GM log so frequently, I can't imagine them making any big mistakes like that. I feel that an event coordinator, is someone asking for a position to do what GMs and devs do as a favor - host events for the players. As such, they are not asked to do anything during their game time, except host events that they plan and announce/post here. To me, this merits a separate account for any event coordinators, as well as a watchful eye for a while.

Now please, and this is to everyone: focus on the topic at hand - event coordinators, not developers, what commands they use, should not use, etc.

[Nard]

For Event Coordinator: I suggest it is nominated the same way GM are, after a poll in the same forum.
temporary GM is too complicated to set up because admins have enough work to do.
I suggest command stick to GM 50 ones: ( they are still open to discussion here):
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 96#p106396

http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/GM_Commands

This topic is for players to discuss GM Commands and Permissions. This topic was made in response to ->"Hmm..Fair or not 2"<-.

In this topic, please discuss as you will, but also consider the suggestion of player organized events that would utilize GM Commands as well as enforcement discussion.

The "Event Coordinator" role hasn't been filled in a long time and can also be discussed in this topic as well as GM and other permission roles.

Suggestions will be reviewed and taken into consideration.

Before the elections we had one particular specialization:

Event Coordinator. (GM like): in charge of global announcements of group events, special events: like drop parties, treasure chest runs, and snake cave runs.
[...]

[Frost]

Let's decide on the list of GM commands that would be useful to an Event Coordinator. We'll create that role on the server.
Once that's done, we can decide on a process to choose the Event Coordinator.
Keep this bus rolling....

Event Coordinators, Devs, Admins, GMs, et cetera are considered trusted enough to have access to certain GM commands. If someone cannot be trusted with the commands available to them, they should not have access to those commands at all. All use of GM commands is logged for public inspection. Specific complaints can be raised in their own threads.
There's no reason to legislate details of access to the GM-enabled account.