automated clients

[veryape]

Response to Nard:

Once again, I think that the rule to ban modified clients and/or new clients is a bad idea. Saying that the usage of non-stock clients = having the intent to bot is quite a weird one from my perspective. We disallow botting, if it people are botting using the regular client and get caught they are banned, the same goes for any other client.

If I for instance have the skill to make a patch to the client that could be used for botting but don't trust others to use it in a lawful way I would keep it to myself. This has two reasons, firstly I would not be willing to help people break the rules and secondly I would not want to be the cause of someone being banned because they made a mistake. Now I have not done this, but i could if I wanted and if I did i would not give away the code because of those concerns.

What ever games does is their decisions, and does not inherently apply here imo. And as I already stated one can easily bot with manaplus too if you really want to. Just set it to go + attack + pickup and either jam the x-key or write a small script that presses x for you every 2 seconds or something like that. This is quite easy to accomplish with some searching on the web even for someone who does not know anything about programming/bash scripting.

Mana+ once started out as a non stock client, I think it is a shining example of why alternative clients are a good idea.

Response to t3st3r:

This topic is open just to discuss rules and to possibly change them for the better if we find a better alternative, I think that it is unfair to say that TMWC is scared of change, our goal is the same as yours. To make the game as good as possible. If this hinges on rule changes we will go for the changes.

And people already have the chance to appeal that their ban was unfair, however changing the scale of punishment AFTER a case has happened is out of the question. Otherwise we could change rules to be harder after a thing has happened, we can only apply the law that is present during the time of the crime. This discussion is raised after a case as we all know, we are discussing it, if we come to a better way to state the rules that are more fair we would probably change them. But botting has been a big problem in this game in the past, if we are more lenient in borderline cases the hardcore botters will probably try to get off with a lesser punishment.

Oh, I never thought you'll also resort to solving GM problems at cost of user experience and players convenience.

Well, since it is disallowed to use i think that the user experience will be better, because people who use that feature don't think that it is against the rules because it is in the official client. I think this is unfortunate, I've been warned for using it too because i did not think it was against the rules since i was at the keyboard. Maybe disable it from all maps but the towns, that is the only place I have seen it used for some good clean fun. And to be honest I don't see it used often so I guess it will not be a big problem if that functionality was jacked from manaplus if connecting to this server. It is actually the only feature in the client that makes it possible to multibox and gain unfair advantages. Those are my personal views and not necessarily the views of other game masters or TMWC.

[Hello=)]

Not saying you should, just saying you can. like i said i would probably act in different way in particular cases.

Technically I can. But what would happen if I do, within current rules? Either no punishment at all (==waste of my and GMs time) or draconian execution (==damage to project and likely players loss). There is no sane way to deal with it within rules at the moment. At very best some GM could turn on brain and use some non-standard solutions, but it would not fit the rules and most likely to cause some extra troubles for GM(s). No-win scenario.

I think Prsm opened this thread in order to have new idea's from the community... so if you really think the way you propose is practical go ahead and continue proposing it.

Well, I attempted to explain my views as good as I can. I think I can't do it better so it's safe to abandon further attempts as well. I don't have time or will to deal with standard TMWC stubbornness at this point. And if someone is ready to propose some better ideas, I'm more than happy to see it. But somehow I think TMWC would stick to their standard tactic: ignore all problems and do not change anything. That's how TMWC works, at least from my experience of external observer.

Well, since it is disallowed to use i think that the user experience will be better,.

To my taste it's not a big deal if you cowardly hide convenient feature or just yell at players using it - both options suxx. If TMW would be alone on the planet and closed-source, such approach maybe can get some chance. But since there are other games, where it is built-in feature of their clients, the only thing it could achieve is discouraging players from playing TMW in favour of more convenient games. With more adequate rules. Where GMs are competent enough to deal with bots without Duck up gameplay and players to solve their own problems. For that reason I would consider such change hostile and lame. Then maybe Straelyn gets the point with his quite unpleasant opinion about TMWC. As for hardcore botters and other offenders, to be honest I do not think permanent ban is good measure at all, except some very few uber-hardcore cases (like salah and maybe very few botters, etc). However, I'm fine with bans up to some few years (where individual will have chances to rethink it or would became more decent). And as player I'm fine if botter getting some 2 months of rest rather than perma-ban. Because if botter would dare to repeat it again anyhow soon - it would be half of year of rest, etc, etc. And banning everyone out shouldn't be purpose on it's own. But as usually, GMs preferred most convenient options which requires no thinking, minimal responsibility and who gives a fsck if server is getting empty? You can always just mumble you've just executed rules, so you're blind execution tool and not in charge of anything as you do not create rules. Very convenient for GMs. Not so convenient for players though.

[prsm]

This forum was open to initiate change, if need be. Open options that are feasible and close options that are not. I see people with some insight into the problems.

It's very easy to blame the GM team for everything that's wrong in the game, but you cant dispute that the "no auto follow" rule came into be because we had a number of players abusing it. That simple! So if someone is sucking the fun out of the game, please make sure the finger is pointed at the right person.

Prsm gets off the egg crate.

[Nard]

If I for instance have the skill to make a patch to the client that could be used for botting but don't trust others to use it in a lawful way I would keep it to myself. This has two reasons, firstly I would not be willing to help people break the rules and secondly I would not want to be the cause of someone being banned because they made a mistake. Now I have not done this, but i could if I wanted and if I did i would not give away the code because of those concerns.

What ever games does is their decisions, and does not inherently apply here imo. And as I already stated one can easily bot with manaplus too if you really want to. Just set it to go + attack + pickup and either jam the x-key or write a small script that presses x for you every 2 seconds or something like that. This is quite easy to accomplish with some searching on the web even for someone who does not know anything about programming/bash scripting.

To prefer a client that has botting features to the same one (and even more, to more recent and friendlier version) which does not include them not makes the intention clear to my eyes. This doesn't mean of course that there are no other ways to bot and even less that I would agree with them. It just has nothing to do with it. You don't even need to know a single word of any script to relax your finger. I don't think that there is a definitive way to prevent cheating, that's why GMs cannot be replaced by bots.

I think Prsm opened this thread in order to have new idea's from the community...

I don't think so, I think he opened it to know the players feelings, and especially those which are unsaid. So be it. Players are annoyed to know that there are botters. They are relatively harmless to them now, when compared to the stack period. They are also annoyed that some outstanding game personalities use bots. No, I will not even insinuate a name, because they were or are sometimes great contributors to TMW, and also mostly very nice persons. However I'd like them to realize how much harm they also do to the game, by installing the feeling that the rules are not the same for everybody. Also they were among the people who decided "No-follow rule"; the result is (in short) that we are frustrated of a feature by the players who abused of it.

Note: TIM could probably be a nice tool to test new and old stuff on test server... if it was open source and designed with this intention.

[Hello=)]

but you cant dispute that the "no auto follow" rule came into be because we had a number of players abusing it. That simple!

I know that fact very well, as I've been one of first to pinpoint the problem and report it. However, it's hard to tell I'm happy with current resolution. I'm positive about nasty botstacks gone. But I do not think it should affect usual players. Unfortunately, chosen resolution affects normal players as well. And as you can see it causes damage over time, recent example has been linked. That's why I currently got rather negative opinion about current TMWC ways of doing things. If you tell TMWC members you have headache, you can normally expect to see some brand new guillotine to address this issue. Because it fastest and most efficient way to get rid of problem, forever. I'm sorry if some particular TMWC members do not share this view - this is overall description of how current ingame climate feels from player side, based on my observation on handling various ingame issues.

[prsm]

but you cant dispute that the "no auto follow" rule came into be because we had a number of players abusing it. That simple!

I know that fact very well, as I've been one of first to pinpoint the problem and report it. However, it's hard to tell I'm happy with current resolution. I'm positive about nasty botstacks gone. But I do not think it should affect usual players. Unfortunately, chosen resolution affects normal players as well. And as you can see it causes damage over time, recent example has been linked. That's why I currently got rather negative opinion about current TMWC ways of doing things. If you tell TMWC members you have headache, you can normally expect to see some brand new guillotine to address this issue. Because it fastest and most efficient way to get rid of problem, forever. I'm sorry if some particular TMWC members do not share this view - this is overall description of how current ingame climate feels from player side, based on my observation on handling various ingame issues.

This may be the root cause of all evil in the game. If i may pick on you just for a minute t3st3r. I am only speaking on behalf of me now, in my capacity of me being a GM.
We find a problem in the game, we try and implement a rule to stop it. We open forum pages to execute change, we listen to all the critics and you constantly whine/complain/scold.
If we are not helping you are helping less!

Offer us some kind of options. We may not like them, or implement them but we will listen to them. If the options that get turned down offer us more, or re-tool them. It is very easy to criticize the rules and how they are enforced, its much harder to enforce them without bias.

Prsm

[AnonDuck]

People shouldn't be allowed to just fire up an automated TMW client they downloaded while at work, minimize it, and wait for it to ding when a GM comes around. I think this is over the automation line and straight into botting territory. GMs should be allowed to look for this type of behavior and prevent it. If they don't have the tools needed for this, let's make some for them.

As far as other automation goes, I'm not really sure. I don't think that modified clients should be disallowed as this will hurt innovation. Mana+ started out as a modified client. I first became interested in TMW by making my own modified client(and yes, botting). I think many other long-time contributors could say the same.. So it's a very hard situation to weigh properly. TMW needs good hackers to help work on things, point out bugs, etc.. and in the past it's been shown that gaming the game is where they usually come from.

I know if I were a GM and saw someone using automation I'd seen a million times before (as in they are using someone else's code) I would probably want to just ban them. If I saw something novel and unique I'd be more likely to strike up a conversation instead and see if they are interested in helping out with the project.

Whatever the end result of this conversation is, please keep in mind that people doing *NEW* things should be approached in a friendly manner. I think it's critical to the health of TMW development.

[Nard]

As far as other automation goes, I'm not really sure. I don't think that modified clients should be disallowed as this will hurt innovation. Mana+ started out as a modified client. I first became interested in TMW by making my own modified client(and yes, botting). I think many other long-time contributors could say the same.. So it's a very hard situation to weigh properly. TMW needs good hackers to help work on things, point out bugs, etc.. and in the past it's been shown that gaming the game is where they usually come from.
[...]
Whatever the end result of this conversation is, please keep in mind that people doing *NEW* things should be approached in a friendly manner. I think it's critical to the health of TMW development.

When modifications are friendly ones, and not intended to cheat, then the author has no problem to submit them to TMWc's agreement and publish them so the players are aware of them.
When modifications are kept secret and reserved to a part of the "community":

1. The author doesn't feel to be part of this community at least with the same rank.
2. New things cannot be friendly for the simple reason that they are not available.
3. At least Manabot, to which you contributed, MadCamel, was open source so it may have been helpful to the development of the actual official client. But I still think that allowing it in game was an error, and a wrong interpretation of the no bot rule (transformed into no afk bot rule). But while you used this bot, you and the players annoyed many regular players and made a lot of them quit. Add to this that Developers appear to other players as if they had a kind of official position (their cap, the ability to broadcast...) and you understand better why the ordinary player feels that the "leading team" allows itself what it denies to them. Imagine the consequences if you had been a GM...
4. When TMW looses gamers, it looses developers for the very true reason you exposed.
5. Where are the developers of these bots? still contributing? with very few exceptions, no.
6. What kind of benefit does TMW get from the development of a secret bots? nothing. Don't you think that the energy spent in bot development could have been better employed in client and server development. At the moment, when a good player has a friendly Idea, 4144 puts it fast into the client. Probably he would have welcome a couple of ideas from TIM developers, but he still cannot use anything in Tim's code because it is private.
7. Especially this energy could have been spent to develop content intended to fill the lacks that caused the the players to be bored up to prefer to watch a very bad TV program instead of playing themselves and learn to know new players instead of making them flee. (some of them did/do it btw)
8. I'd prefer that GMs would spend most of their time to organize events than to track bots, which is a boring task that wears them.

If the intentions of any bot development had been to hilight server or client weaknesses just as manaplus did, I would have nothing to say about them but greetings, but it was obviously not the case. On the opposite they were the cause of endless discussions on the best way to fight them, dramas, of lies and disgust, of bans of many nice and friendly people, and finally of player frustration because fun and useful features are removed instead of considering the issue as it is.

It is not my responsibility as a player to point someone or someone else to public: I am not a GM nor in TMWc; it is TMWc's one to watch itself and face reality, make the balance and decide, with TMW's interest in sight.

[pclouds]

When modifications are kept secret and reserved to a part of the "community":
....

I changed the code to include my password so I don't have to type it every time. But I don't have energy to make it a general approach to submit (there will be security concerns that _I_ can ignore but the majority of users won't).

[Nard]

When modifications are kept secret and reserved to a part of the "community":
....

I changed the code to include my password so I don't have to type it every time. But I don't have energy to make it a general approach to submit (there will be security concerns that _I_ can ignore but the majority of users won't).

I think you can report it to 4144 who will probably welcome it and may add a "record password" check box in the start up dialog.
This kind of modifications are generally welcome, I was not speaking of this kind of enhancement. Yours is totally "legal" has nothing to do with the ones made by a player community which thinks they are wiser enough to be outside the rules.

[Hello=)]

We find a problem in the game, we try and implement a rule to stop it. We open forum pages to execute change, we listen to all the critics and you constantly whine/complain/scold. If we are not helping you are helping less!

Its possible, unfortunately. And unfortunately there are reasons why it happens this way. When I suggest change something, it's either being ignored or I'm being told it's crap. Then, usually, nobody proposes better solutions and things getting stuck. Btw, I respect your attempts to monitor situation and try to change things. So it's sad if I haven't been helpful here. I think I attempted to propose solutions. Sorry if it haven't worked. If you failed to notice, I'm rarely "just complain". I try to propose solutions if I can find them. But it fails to work usually. For example, now I'm being told I'm only complaining/whining and do not propose solutions. Hmmph? Are you sure about that? I think I proposed change to rules, didn't I?

Offer us some kind of options. We may not like them, or implement them but we will listen to them.

I think I'm already suggested to amend rules, maybe even several times. Maybe these were not best ideas, I can assume that. But those claiming these ideas are bad somehow failed to offer their solutions which would be better and would improve state of things over what we have now. That's what actually brings most such processes nowhere.

If the options that get turned down offer us more, or re-tool them.

Could be an option. But to keep things fair I wonder if same idea applies in reverse direction as well. I.e. I would assume if someone tells my solution is crap, they're assumed to put serious efforts to find some better solutions rather than whining about the fact my solution is crap. The problem is that I fail to see this part of process. Then it obviously getting stuck and never reaches consensus. Because it should be iterative process and all sides are supposed to take part.

It is very easy to criticize the rules and how they are enforced, its much harder to enforce them without bias.

I know it and understand it. And its one of reasons why I'm seeking to reduce difference between what I can actually see in game and what is written on paper.

p.s. and when someone just blindly follows written words without using their brain, it usually looks like this: http://www.wallon.ru/_ph/23/642097964.jpg

I think you can report it to 4144 who will probably welcome it and may add a "record password" check box in the start up dialog.

Highly debatable because then a lot of password thievery would happen (by trojan horses, requests to "show your config", etc, etc). Pclouds is right about this. He can ignore it as long as he is one on planet doing so - nobody would create trojan horse to attack single player. If it's mainlined, it's more tempting target.

[AnonDuck]

You forget one thing: Writing bots, exploiting the game, etc.. is *fun*. That's the first thing anyone with a hackerish mindset will do when coming to TMW, and I guarentee they will have a blast doing it. Ex: 4144, Myself, remoitnane, Freeyorp, Jax* at times... The list goes on.

It's amazing that so much has been contributed to this game by such evil, despicable, horrible people isn't it? Perhaps everything they contributed is tainted and should be removed at once?
^ Being silly.

Anyway, yeah. People tend to screw around a lot first before actually contributing. Don't chase them away by being a dick when they could easily have something cool to offer. Derp.

As a side note, both Nard and t3st3r always seem to be right. All the time. Every time. At verbose length. Perhaps we should just stand back and let them battle it out? I've got $5(in bitcoin) on Nard having the higher word count in this thread by the end of the month, anyone up for a bet?

[SriNitayanda]

Perhaps we should just stand back and let them battle it out? I've got $5(in bitcoin) on Nard having the higher word count in this thread by the end of the month, anyone up for a bet?

meh, i find it a bit harsh but...
i'll put 10$ on t3st3r

[Nard]

You forget one thing: Writing bots, exploiting the game, etc.. is *fun*. That's the first thing anyone with a hackerish mindset will do when coming to TMW, and I guarentee they will have a blast doing it. Ex: 4144, Myself, remoitnane, Freeyorp, Jax* at times... The list goes on.

It's amazing that so much has been contributed to this game by such evil, despicable, horrible people isn't it? Perhaps everything they contributed is tainted and should be removed at once?
^ Being silly.

Anyway, yeah. People tend to screw around a lot first before actually contributing. Don't chase them away by being a dick when they could easily have something cool to offer. Derp.

As a side note, both Nard and t3st3r always seem to be right. All the time. Every time. At verbose length. Perhaps we should just stand back and let them battle it out? I've got $5(in bitcoin) on Nard having the higher word count in this thread by the end of the month, anyone up for a bet?

I can understand that you have fun writing bots. As I said already said many times, they can have some utility for game testing, especially for quest dimensioning: how many items can a player gather per time unit. But I never saw any feedback of this kind in this forum. Bot users can perform some testing of unreleased stuff to simulate more players and this part is hidden. As they never report about this kind of testing, I am unable to evaluate the benefit.
I have much more difficulties to understand which kind of pleasure you have to transgress the rules and take an unfair advantage regarding other players. Maybe it's because you find some aspects of the game rather boring? I may agree with you on this aspect of the things.
If as you seem to say, the game makers find it so fun to play with bots, then why don't they allow everyone to bot? Because the fun is to get advantage and look at the dumbs who follow the rule struggle like after a kick in an ant-heap? If you want to test your bot, there is a testing server.
As many, you also forget to read the things that don't make your opinion stronger. I tried a year long to contribute in wiki, in graphics, in scripting. I was kind of kicked with bad faith and insults so your remark is just pointless. Please also note that I was in the past, among the few to thank developers for their job (the nice part). I prefer to do it by chat now. your kind of reply makes just me think it is better to keep away from development. If you don't like critics, closing this forum would avoid you from loosing time.

Edit: side note: The first Idea that came to me when I discovered TMW was to understand it. We have this in common. The difference between us is that I have no will to cheat even have skills enough to do it.

[Hello=)]

You forget one thing: Writing bots, exploiting the game, etc.. is *fun*. That's the first thing anyone with a hackerish mindset will do when coming to TMW, and I guarentee they will have a blast doing it. Ex: 4144, Myself, remoitnane, Freeyorp, Jax* at times... The list goes on.

I can understand it, you have a point. Do you know why I care? I've seen example how current rules can discourage [harmless] experiments with client. If you can face draconian punishment on slightest mistake, it discourages learning client internals and screws development attempts. That's why I think amount of guilt should be considered when making judgement. At the end of day it's not even automations what is bad (guns do not kill people, unless "real" AI created). It's unfair advantage over others that counts. I mostly care about 2 scenarios: botting for XP/loot (no fun to compete with machines at grind) and unfair battles (3 sync'd chars can pwn one char for sure). I don't think those who botting for months should face same punishment as someone who forgot some #betsanc refresh while drinking coffee. IMO single punishment for all cases does not works well and does not leads to best results.