Scythe & Shield

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martych
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Scythe & Shield

Post by martych »

I just got hold of my wooden shield, and I tried to use it along with my scythe. I would expect it would take off my scythe, since it is a two-handed weapon, but it didn't. Is this some sort of bug or is it supposed to be possible to both equip a shield and use a two-handed weapon?
Edit:
I have done a little more testing. It seems that the shield does in fact improve defence whilst I am using the scythe as well. once I take it off I take around 14 more dmg, so it seems the shield does in fact work!
I cannot seem to find any posts on this in the forum though, so I hope I wont get flamed for this... :(

I am running Gentoo 64-bit with kernel 2.6.30-gentoo-r5, tmw version is 0.0.29.1 (it should also be the 64-bit version)
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Crush
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Re: Scythe & Shield

Post by Crush »

Why do you think that the scythe is a two-handed weapon?
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Jaxad0127
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Re: Scythe & Shield

Post by Jaxad0127 »

The animation for it is two-handed.
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Re: Scythe & Shield

Post by martych »

http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/ ... ed_Weapons

This is why I think so. The wiki is not 100% truth and could in fact be misguiding, but I have no other place to find info.
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Re: Scythe & Shield

Post by Doulos »

martych wrote:http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/ ... ed_Weapons

This is why I think so. The wiki is not 100% truth and could in fact be misguiding, but I have no other place to find info.
Hmm. martych, you seem to have a valid point. A scythe is a two-handed tool in real life. And it is listed among the two-handed weapons in the wiki. Nice call.

An oversight? Should the shield really be equiped with this tool? I don't want to get too deep into the "yes, this happens in real life but it is THIS way HERE" argument. But the two-handed nature of the Scythe does make equiping a shield as effective as it is for an archer.

(Wikipedia illustration)
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Crush
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Re: Scythe & Shield

Post by Crush »

How will this affect game balance? When the scythe has the disadvantage over knifes that it can't be used with a shield it should be stronger than them.
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Re: Scythe & Shield

Post by martych »

Doulos wrote:
martych wrote:http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/ ... ed_Weapons

This is why I think so. The wiki is not 100% truth and could in fact be misguiding, but I have no other place to find info.
Hmm. martych, you seem to have a valid point. A scythe is a two-handed tool in real life. And it is listed among the two-handed weapons in the wiki. Nice call.

An oversight? Should the shield really be equiped with this tool? I don't want to get too deep into the "yes, this happens in real life but it is THIS way HERE" argument. But the two-handed nature of the Scythe does make equiping a shield as effective as it is for an archer.

(Wikipedia illustration)
Well I did not mean to relate to the real world, afterall...when is the last time you have seen a moving treee? :lol:
It really depends on what our dear developers want TMW to be like? (You have a valid point nonetheless..)
There is also the valid question as to what sort of effect it will have on balance.. From my few hours (42+ hours) I can only mention that getting the scythe is a pain in the neck, once I got it however, it was much easier to defend myself against creatures... There is also the slow attack rate of the scythe to remember.

If the scythe becomes a 2-handed weapon it can become a bit hard to kill any monsters on the "lower lvls (read as 45+)", unless you get a short sword, because you will not be able to withstand the punishment from the creatures this forces people to do the sword quest right away, effectively getting rid of the use of scythe as a weapon since it doesn't offer that much compared to the short sword.

If a user is limited to using a dagger/shield (because he hasn't done the short sword quest) because the scythe doesn't offer option of shield, it can become a reckless battle you go into fighting when doing so low damage to monsters.
Another question is....can you equip shield/bow as well? I have not tried yet, but I will when I get home.
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Re: Scythe & Shield

Post by CodyMartin »

martych wrote:If the scythe becomes a 2-handed weapon it can become a bit hard to kill any monsters on the "lower lvls (read as 45+)", unless you get a short sword, because you will not be able to withstand the punishment from the creatures this forces people to do the sword quest right away, effectively getting rid of the use of scythe as a weapon since it doesn't offer that much compared to the short sword.
Considering that the bone knife is obtainable from level 40, players should be able to get the short sword before that. At that level even a single spider is inflictings a lot of damage, so that even with a shield it is hard to do without help.
martych wrote:Another question is....can you equip shield/bow as well?
No, you cannot equip a bow and a shield at the same time. With the bow you can fight monster from a higher distance, so that they cannot inflict damage to you.
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Jaxad0127
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Re: Scythe & Shield

Post by Jaxad0127 »

What if we gave the scythe a longer range? Not as far as bows, but farther than other melee.

We could also give it a bit of def.
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Re: Scythe & Shield

Post by martych »

jaxad0127 wrote:What if we gave the scythe a longer range? Not as far as bows, but farther than other melee.

We could also give it a bit of def.
How about adding a little crit along with it perhaps? Longer range would be nice... but how does that play with future weapons like the halberd, trident etc? A range of +1 tile would be nice... Just make sure you can't kill through walls. :)
Defence is nice, just not too much.. we would'nt want to overpower it. :) I leave that to you masters of the game ;)
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Re: Scythe & Shield

Post by Doulos »

Crush wrote:How will this affect game balance? When the scythe has the disadvantage over knifes that it can't be used with a shield it should be stronger than them.
  • The jump from a +15 Dagger damage to +75 Scythe damage is already unbalanced, imho. A small disadvantage isn't unreasonable.
  • Most players don't have a shield by the time they get the Scythe other than the leather shield which makes little difference in saving a player (and isn't intended to either).
  • Most players never keep the scythe for great lengths of time because the Short Sword soon replaces it. (It is a rarely seen tool used in game, from observation.)
  • Many players bypass the tool altogether and are led to the Short Sword by helpful higher level players. And that is not a reflection on the lack of shielding.
Another possibility is to give the Scythe +100 while removing the shielding. This would make it as strong as the Short Sword (too easily attainable these days) but still at a disadvantage.
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Re: Scythe & Shield

Post by Jaxad0127 »

I think a longer range would help offset the issue.
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Re: Scythe & Shield

Post by Dicekid »

Just to bring up something new: Why don't you bring the other weapons in game which are already pixeled?
I mean if you start, you have some weak short range weapons, then comes the scythe (which is a big jump), then the short sword and the bone knife. I wouldn't give the scythe more advantages as higher range or something like this but still take it as a two-handed weapon. For the balancing I would really suggest to bring in weapons that fit in the gap between the knifes and the scythe, because you can't balance the whole game on 6 different weapons (while 3 of them are almost the same).
Another idea would be to make one of the knifes/dagger quite a bit stronger so that this one could fill the gap.

Just an idea...
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Re: Scythe & Shield

Post by martych »

jaxad0127 wrote:I think a longer range would help offset the issue.
I think that is a good option. Thankyou for the feedback so quick :) Hope I didn't cause too much fuss.
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Crush
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Re: Scythe & Shield

Post by Crush »

Dicekid wrote:Just to bring up something new: Why don't you bring the other weapons in game which are already pixeled?
There are none, afaik. Are you maybe talking about those inventory icons we already have?

They are missing the animation. For most of them additional animation stances for the playerset itself are required which will also require a ton of modifications at the equipment sprites.
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