"Player follow" will get you banned

[Nard]

People, please realize:This rule only affects the 1% of the players who have 42% of the characters, drops, xp, etc.

Good news!. Now we know that you have the tools to know how many orange towels disappeared consecutively to the "pretty code" update
that introduced the bug on line. We can now require their replacement

This rule is a reinterpretation of the "no botting" rule that invalidates the previous clarification that only "afk botting" was disallowed. It was never the intention to allow botting of any form, the only question was what sort of rules could be enforced.

This rule was generated with consideration for previous public backlash against the repeal of the "no-multibotting" rule, as well as its weaknesses (the "impossibility" of proving that characters who looked like multibots and acted like multibots were all controlled by the same player - and the fact that it did nothing about collective stack-botting).

Regarding auto-healing when someone else gives the alt-1 emote ... This was discussed and auto-healing is not something we want in our game. However, there was no resolution to the question of how it would be enforced - how do you know it's not just a player with fast reflexes (since ping time varies greatly around the world or even for a single connection) - whereas stack-botting is easily detected.

So your intention is to prevent game from botting. Good, I can understand that and agree with it, though some bot users try not to interfere with single lower level players while some even higher level players "steal" targets and drops. And what about a lot of fast archers or mages who don't worry about drops or experience left to the warriors who fix the targets for them; more some consider that they increase the warriors experience gain rate
I am surprised that you can imagine that such a simplistic decision will solve any problem. In my opinion it is just a matter of time until developers find a work around : what about automatic navigation, scripting... ?
Chance has nothing to do with the fact other RPGs chose to have the same client to everybody. And You, GHP, are not able to impose the official one because of it's obvious wholes.

Also, stack-botting is far more harmful to the community at large than auto-healing is - do you have any idea how many people have left the game because of it?

Do you?
Do you know know how many players left because of the lack of content? and how many left because they felt harassed because some other players have fun to kill everybody in Terranites cave and forbid them access to its resources?...

A player that cheats is considered to disrupt the experience of other good players since he breaks realism and balance. He will not be tolerated in our online community.

That's why I referred to it.

on another side

[...] in next version we have a lot more tools. Basically the server logs all activities that are not considered legal, or are suspicious. The log is then manually read by developers and actions will be taken.[...]
It's important to note that we do not take actions immediately on a cheater. We collect info on him with the objective to stop all his actions at proper time. Cheaters tend to have more characters, party with other cheaters and so on. If a cheater is detected and flagged as a cheater, action can be taken against them even months later.[...]
As we said our actions are not taken immediately when a potential cheat is detected and the ban is done when massively evident proof is against a cheater.

This means that if you (we?) really want to get rid of botting:
1. It is necessary for players to have a clear idea of what is allowed and what is not. As long as Platyna's rule #2 is not modified , It holds.
2. It is necessary that players have similar global rate of levelling whatever the class they choose
3. It is necessary that there is content enough, so the only goal of some players is not to raise the maximum number of characters to level 99 or get 30000 bones (sorry Wombat, I don't think there is content enough, TY Jenalya, alastrim, o11c...)

This game can be piss ass boring at times and a few macros work wonders for keeping this game... well... playable for more then 2 days in a row.

4. It is necessary that you develop tools that allow GMs and Admins to take decisions as fairly as possible (know that you are working on some of them).

/follow can be seen in two ways: an utility intended to ha fun or to help players to cooperate ( Cindy cave, snake mountain...) or a bot intended utility. Even if I suppose that you are able to prove I am using it. I don't think the new rule is the solution to the bot problem and numbers you quoted show it's main use is not botting. Then, please; think to majority too

A bit fun now: Why don't you tell GMs that the best way to ennoy a multiboxing botter is to stick a bunch of players to his stack (preferably ones he/she doesn't like). I'm sure that MrWho will fill his trolling tendencies if he is asked to participate
I propose a new ability for GMs; they are allowed to @recall 10 players he chooses and ask them to stick to a stack and fight, players cannot refuse. ... more fun than a ban
note:

good!! waooo cheerss, now how long it took?

congratz Salmondine, Sugarcorgit, Prsm, ZShadok, and all who did it that way. @Jael: isn't the purpose of a game to have fun no matter of the time you spend? My goal in game is not to reach 99; the only interest (to me) to get higher level is to get new abilities. Several chars allow me to try different char classes. and vary pleasures.

Finally, as a player, I would like to say: it's easily possible to fight solo in the graveyard.

possible, yes! easily surely no. Were you able to complete Reid's inn quests solo on your personal server or only the diseased hearts one? If so, I do bend.

Finally, as an occasional project leader, I would say: there is not always a simple solution to a complex problem

[Platyna]

Botting is not allowed. Some bots and automated scripts are allowed conditionally out of courtesy, we do reserve ourselves the right to ban a bot (and its owner) without explanation. I hope I have explained the rules clearly enough.

Regards.

[Piateluca]

AFK = away from keyboard.
You would still be at your keyboard and not afk.

Regards,

[Jael RD]

Botting is not allowed. Some bots and automated scripts are allowed conditionally out of courtesy, we do reserve ourselves the right to ban a bot (and its owner) without explanation. I hope I have explained the rules clearly enough.

Regards.

So just to be clear about interpretation, whats the definition of bot or botting according HGP?

[MrDemonWolf]

Quiet honestly is there any real complaints against this rule other than it makes it harder for me to level. (IMHO) The only people who this affects level wise are the ones who only use warriors. Honestly if your an archer or mage and your auto stacking your either botting with multiple mages or archers or your just an idiot. I've played this game for a long time and I have not once seen any mage or archer use the auto follow feature even with each other because it ruins their leveling efficiency. Also the complaint about you cant tell if some one is using auto follow or not is just crap. Now if you mean you can't tell if their all the same person or not that I will agree with. You can however tell if someone is auto following or not though. Don't get me wrong I have used the auto follow feature as well it does make things easier, but I leveled my warrior without it before and honestly the only thing it does is make it to where I can talk easier while leveling other than that there is no other gain for me. I guess my point is that if your only complaint is that it makes leveling harder than this rule needs to go into effect. My only true complaint about this rule is that I offen use auto follow in hurns with people when were having fun joking around. I understand if your using it to harass someone then that person needs to be warned. So in that respect I think there needs to be some give, but that is up to the GM's I guess. I also will agree with one of Chika's earlier statement that this rule should have been implemented after the rebalancing was done. At least then it would seem more reasonable the what it does now. Either way these are my opinions on this as it stands.

P.S. We seriously need to have an official announcement about this by someone from the GHP instead of this crappy in game announcement and a topic discussing whether it is fair or not.

[jessyb03]

I'm not going to say too much cause I think almost every point has been expressed thus far. However, I have been away from this game for a mere 2 days, and if it wasn't for the fact that I read the forums every time BEFORE I play the game, I would've been banned.
A. Because my husband usually uses follow to get to the terranite cave with me so we dont have to BOTH do the tedious exercise of getting there.
B. Because we both have more than one character who follow each other when fighting.

My feeling's about this "redefinition" are bittersweet since I got my main char to level 92 from June to November by playing over 8 hours in one day. However; I began to use all the automated features when I got to level 85 and had nothing else to do but hunt for terranite ore and collect rares...

Yes, the game needs more content. Yes, most botters are very abusive. Yes, its hard to tell the "auto-follow" from the regular follow (the one that doesn't attack while following).

I guess this is one of the situations in which "a few abusers" cause others to pay.

This game IS very filled with alts "botting"; I've been online at times in which there's about 15 "humans" and the rest are their bots (I would say this is very content related).

Someone mentioned that now botters will "split" their parties and that this will cause even more problems; I definitely agree with this, cause it's definitely a solution I would come up with myself.

[Deimheucadh]

who will be banned in the case of auto-follow-attack-stack? leader or follower or both?
if both, i would like to make you ban some players i dislike for their abusing.

and i think it will be useful for clear explanation of the rules:
botting is afk (away from keyboard) activity, including multibox players logged from one IP and using autofollow, autopickup, autoheal and autoattack features from all their client (except the first).
afk-activity is using client program as inactive window while character in that window is acting (going, fighting, healing, picking up items).
one person = one character = one client.
the character acting like a bot will be banned forever.

i think that multibox is very useful for levelling and collecting drops. but i can play in the other manner, i reached 90 level of archer solo with old 0.0.29.1 client, because i did not know about manabot in that time. i dont like this new interpretation, but rules are rules, i will not break the rules.

btw, the game may be absolutely fair for all players only with endless set of rules

[Big Crunch]

This is not a 'new rule'. This is just a correction concerning Rule 2, No Bots.

This correction does not change the way bots are determined with the exception of automated following. It has been stated by Platyna, that automated following is a clear and obvious sign of botting and is therefore punishable.

Considering that we have been addressing it differently in the past, we are warning players before potentially moving to corrective action. When we move to corrective action regarding automated following, we will follow the standard progression of corrective actions, warning, kick, ban (1h, 1d, 3d, etc).

We are not entirely unsympathetic, however the rule had to be no automated following, period, for the sake of enforcement. Considering that there would be arguments and complaints about how it was unfairly applied and they were only showing their 3 year old sisters cousin what a terranite was, I hope you can see this was the only way for it to be fairly applied.

And the fact is that this is a feature of an unsupported 3rd party client, not the official client.

BC

[JackDeth]

Personally, I find it less fun to fight alongside bot stacks.

You need more than one character to fight in that area? Bring a friend.
You don't have friends in the game? Make some (friends, that is. Not just alts).
You like the XP bonus from cooperating with other people? Play cooperatively.

Some people run over other characters with their bots to take all the XP. Some bring archer bots to "boost" their XP (and drops, of course). A few people even think that because they have a stack of 3-4 bots, that area "belongs" to them, and they attack characters who intrude.

It's not actually that hard to play without auto-follow. I won't give away all the secrets, but some say that the arrow keys do something.

Arrow keys? What is that? Is that a new feature?
I have to agree, though...fighting alongside someone who obviously has a few alts on attack-follow is not very fun. I also find it more fun to make friends and bring a group to an area and help each other to gain xp. Co-op play is much more fun!

In this forum I can read:
Again you cannot prove that two chars with same IP same are operated by one people. (BTW I suppose that it is the reason why Prsm was the only one not to be "punished" for sockpuppeting, he didn't use a proxy)

A few reflections now.
The actual rules were sufficient when there were only a few players and with little of them able to cheat on a large scale. They have to be updated now, every one feels it just as you GHP. The best, in my opinion, is that the debate should be started here, in player talk. If most contributors are honest, the result will surely be positive. The worse way to do it is taking decisions one after another without having a global view of actual (unofficial) clients features.
For example some clients offer an automatic healing ability , which destroys the balance you are trying to have between players, as this possibility is not offered to everyone.
Maybe a first solution would be to impose a client to everyone, and simultaneously develop tools to check it has been modified or not. Almost all other RPGs do that (even opensource ones). If so the official client client should be set ManaPlus as official one is lacking elementary abilities, when it works.

Reference : Chapter 2. PlaneShift Player Guide>2.11. Cheating:http://www.planeshift.it/guide/en/guide-cheating.html

I agree, you cannot just assume that because multiple character from the same IP address are the same person. As many of you know, not only do I play, but two of my kids play with me at the same time, very often, from their own computers. We all use the same ISP so would show up as having the same IP.

I think having one client is an interesting idea. But who decides which client is the best client?

People, please realize:

This rule only affects the 1% of the players who have 42% of the characters, drops, xp, etc.

This rule is a reinterpretation of the "no botting" rule that invalidates the previous clarification that only "afk botting" was disallowed. It was never the intention to allow botting of any form, the only question was what sort of rules could be enforced.

This rule was generated with consideration for previous public backlash against the repeal of the "no-multibotting" rule, as well as its weaknesses (the "impossibility" of proving that characters who looked like multibots and acted like multibots were all controlled by the same player - and the fact that it did nothing about collective stack-botting).

Regarding auto-healing when someone else gives the alt-1 emote ... This was discussed and auto-healing is not something we want in our game. However, there was no resolution to the question of how it would be enforced - how do you know it's not just a player with fast reflexes (since ping time varies greatly around the world or even for a single connection) - whereas stack-botting is easily detected. Also, stack-botting is far more harmful to the community at large than auto-healing is - do you have any idea how many people have left the game because of it?

Also, I appreciate the following quote from the planeshift link:

A player that cheats is considered to disrupt the experience of other good players since he breaks realism and balance. He will not be tolerated in our online community.

Finally, as a player, I would like to say: it's easily possible to fight solo in the graveyard.

Well, I do have to agree that stack-botting (when it's the same player with a bunch of alts) is harmful to the community. However, your comment that it's easily possible to fight solo in the graveyard is just a steaming pile of maggot slime.

Btw if I put my 3 chars close to each other and start the bot in the 3 clients, they will attack the same thing, am I breaking some rule there??

and from the wiki rules:
2: No bots (not any AFK activity in game).

unless you can tell me how you are playing 3 clients, and in front of 3 keyboards all at the same time ....... you have your answer

Well, they did it on the ships in The Matrix!
If someone were to get technical, they aren't really away from their keyboard. They are AFC (away from client).

Makes no sense to me.. if the person was afk i would understand but how does it match with the botting rule if your not afk while following?

2. No bots (and by botting I mean ANY AFK activity in game).

Auto Following is not considered afk activity if you can respond.

I will try and explain than, assuming you have a stack of 5 people on auto follow, you have 5 clients open. 4 hidden and the one main one that is "leading". (and for the record i am assuming all are under the same ip).

You would have the main window open, and the other 4 windows either hidden behind it, minimized, or perhaps even spaced on your screen.

Those 4 windows you are afk from! that simple. and Yes you can jump back to them if need be, but that doesnt negate the fact that for a length of time you are afk. Thats why the rule was reinterpreted! no botting was a rule from day one.

While I tend to agree with Prsm, this is still dangerous water to tread in. If you have multiple clients open (and I honestly don't know how some people can keep up with all that crap), and they somehow manage to be able to play characters in each of them - one at a time - it's still not technically AFK (away from keyboard) since they are there the whole time. They are really AFC (away from client). Plus, if you talk to each one of them and they respond, they are not really AFK.

I do, however, understand your point and think this is one of the best ways I've heard of putting this.

i may not be in much of a position as to speak, but from what i can read, players are utilizing "follow" feature to level and get items. and some say that leveling and getting certain drop items in this game is boring. fact is, that's how games are. the shitty drop rate is what drives people to keep going. heck i've gone for days hunting silk cocoons and bottles of water. yes, i am frustrated. got 99, and need one more. killed one herd of them in a day only to found none. never mind. i'll try again tomorrow. forgive me, but where's the gameplay spirit guys?!

levelling is hard? i'd say its easy. few players i know say that too. is there joy if you just used a bot to level? i don't know about you, but i don't. achieving something that you didn't work for. achievement? nope.

isn't it obvious that if drop rates are high, items will be in abundance? values for items will drop. players get this and that easily. perhaps maybe even weapons or quest items. i made friends to get my 9 black scorpions, 100 silk cocoons, 3 medium healing potions and so much more (tip: yes i'm a noob). when i achieved a quest or got a rare item drop by myself and the help of other humans, i am satisfied. a sense of achievement. i thank my friends. i congratulate myself. all the hunting make my game time worth it and enjoyable.

ladies and gentlemen, this is the mmorpg experience (imo). hunting for hours for an item drop. killing maggots for hours for experience and level. why them bots in the first place?

apologies if i've offended anyone. just saying my own opinion...

No, you're not in any position to speak, and yes you offended me, so be quiet!

(JUST KIDDING!)

Seriously, though...while I may not agree with everything you said (like "leveling is easy"!!....I almost spewed milk out my nose when you said that, I was laughing so hard), I think you put it very eloquently and a lot of what you said has great value.

As many of you know, since I started playing this game over 2 yrs ago, I have only had this one character. I have also only ever played this character with completely averaged stats, and have never changed my stats once since starting the game! I have been told that if I can make lvl 99, I will have been the first person to do it with completely average stats and never having changed them. So, for me it's a goal. I am currently at lvl 91 - after 2 years of playing! I have also done this without having to build alts and bot my a$$ off. Is leveling hard for me? It's extremely painful!! Some days I feel it will take me the rest of my life to make lvl 99. Would it be easier if I changed stats? Sure! Been then I would be cheating myself out of my goal. I kind of look at folks who attack-follow with a stack of their own alts to be kind of cheating themselves out of a worthwhile goal and also cheating other players out of attaining many of their goals by effectively cheating the system.

I have used the Follow feature to follow other players who are trying to show me how to get someplace. I have used Attack-Follow in cases where I'm fighting with a group of friends and just want to make socializing while fighting easier so I can chat without dying in 5 seconds. Do I think we should just ban all botting of all kinds? No. Should we ban all following? No. Should we ban attack-follow? Well, maybe, but only in cases where it's being abused. How do we determine that?

Well, I'm not a programmer, so I cannot say for sure. But in my mind, if someone is using a feature like Attack-Follow, doesn't it set some sort of "flag" on their character when it's activated? Couldn't a special version of the client (let's say ManaPlus) be created, specifically for GM use only, that would allow them to see these "flags" and know what kinds of features a character has "turned on" at any given time? Or that would display other useful information (like if multiple characters in a stack seem to come from the same IP address), etc.? I mean, c'mon guys, if we're gonna go through the pain of electing GM's, why not empower them and give them tools to more effectively do their job so we can keep the gameplay more fun and flowing smoothly?

To further reply to altbdoor, I really have to comment on your comment about getting help from your friends when doing certain quests. I must completely and totally agree with you on that.

While I find it a complete pain in the a$$ to level in this game (and I admit a lot of it is because of the choices I've made in playing style), I really enjoy the social aspects of this game the best. From the very day I started playing this, I have met some of the nicest people from all over the world who play this game. They welcomed me to the game and helped me with learning how to play, how to achieve my first quests, etc. Once I reached higher levels I then in turn tried to spend as much time as possible helping other people to have more fun in this game achieving their goals.

I, personally, find it very hard to accumulate money and certain rares I like, or even to solve certain harder quests, and would not have done so without the help of other very generous players.

I have been very privileged to have made friends with, and even formed a guild with some of the nicest people I've met (both online and offline) from all over the globe, and feel very blessed because of it. We spend a lot of time not only helping each other to solve our respective quests and goals, but also helping other non-guild players to do the same. We find it to be a valuable and rewarding experience and really only benefits the entire game as a whole.

While I find using features like following are useful, as some have pointed out they are not necessary for enriching gameplay. If you don't think you can level or get the rares or items you really want on your own, then make some friends. Be generous to other people first. I only keep the rare hats/masks/items that I really like and plan on wearing/using. I do not collect for the sake of collecting/hoarding or making money. If I have rares I don't think I'll actively use, or I have duplicates somehow of those I do use, I usually tend to give them away to others (non-collectors) that I think will enjoy and use them. I have in turn, over time, had others gift me certain rare items that I have been seeking. There are a lot of really nice, generous players out there. Hey, just remember, what comes around goes around. So, get out there, make some friends, form some parties or guilds, and work toward your goals together and stop worrying so much about one particular feature/function that really, in the end, isn't earth shatteringly important. Just have fun playing the game and try to help others have fun as well so we can see the mana community grow.

(Steps of his soapbox....)

[Ledmitz]

Point 1 - More important matters - I've been here for a few months now. I have seen no emphasis put on enforcing any of the rules other than botting. There are some really harrassing people on here at times, though I have been mostly lucky and happen to not really give a Chocolate Cupcake what some lame-ass twat has to say anyway. Call me pinkie drawers all day if you want too, but that isn't supposed to be part of the game, is it? Most of the in game annoyances are caused directly by beggars and bot-haters. The latter seem to be some of the most offensive people in the game, doing far worse things by being personally insulting than the party that leaves everyone alone and is only concerned with leveling a character.... and what of it? I still do not see how another players lvl can affect my game unless there is PVP. How about permabanning a real arse for a change instead of the people that like to play it the most? Chat logging is the answer here. All chats. You should do that for your own protection from neglegance in case of a predator situation anyway, which i have heard of now more than once. If we want privacy, we will use an external chat client. And yes.. those that use bots/follow do play the most, it seems to me. They are usually the ones most dedicated to leveling and actually having a good chat on. They are who you found at the GY the most and most often, so of course they will level faster. The follow feature, was a social feature.... and it is now gone... social with it.

Point 2 - This IS a new rule. Botting was deemed to be any AFK activity. If I have 4 screens up and 1 keyboard... I am at my keyboard... not away.. regardless of whether i can see all 4 screens or not. If you can reply.. you are at your keyboard. plain as day to me. I however do not do that.. I may be a little OCD, but i cannot stand having a split screen. For me, it is a laptop and a PC. I have never used more than 2 at a time and can always see both screens, even if they both show the same thing. That means I am at both keyboards, not away from them by any definition given so far.

Point 3 - Just following - This is not a 3D shoot-em up here or some strategy game like tetris. A bot does not make you a terror to people here the way some make it sound or roll you to the #1 score, stealing anothers ranking. (YES I say bot not follow as that is the source of the problem, no?) I mostly like follow so I can talk more and roll more joints. Both keep me playing longer. Also.. there was a situation as of recent where a player was banned for following while afk.... just folllowing, mind you... not attacking. I fail to see how that player was benefitting themselves other than being able to be in the same spot as their companion when they got back to PC... and before you tell me they could have been auto-healing...... GM could have easily requested the leader to do alt 1 or say the word heal. That following player was banned for no good reason. A faithful, loyal, regular player at that. WTF? ... and no he is not a friend.. we have spoken on few occasions only but I heard good about them. Banning them for that was a real shitty move, I think and so is making new rules and not informing the players of it. But hey.. you were only really after 1 player anyway, right? and that would have been a real easy way to upset another very loyal player to the game, right? Not to mention a topnotch guy that actually does stand by his moral beliefs more than friendship, which I actually admire, myself.

Point 4 - Do a client check if you're so damned concerned with botting/following. I can see no real reason why any client other than the regular mana client would even be allowed. Manaplus is fantastic if you are a mage.. too fantastic, in fact (compared to regular). Let's see how many remain mages after that implement. The whole reccurring, unbalance of class discussion only exists because clients differ. Sure all classes are equal in the regular client, but put those classes on manaplus and a mage has an awful lot of power at their fingertips compared to the others. Either get cracking on making the reg client more useful to mages and counter that with taking some power away from mages or..... just about anything else, other than persecuting the players, would sure as hell be nice.

Point 5 - We love this game ... oh yes we do.. that is why we play so much and that is why we post here to discuss it. There have been, I'm sure, many a person who has put in a lot of time into bringing the game to this point. Why ruin it and make people turn away from all that hard work. What a loss it would be for everyone.


PS - WTF is the undress function for in manaplus? That one command cheapens the entire program making it look amatuer, when in fact it is a great client. I say instant ban for anyone caught undressing anyone else without their permission... lol .... seriously though... WTF is that nonsense?

Mushrooms forever!!!

[o11c]

The follow feature, was a social feature.... and it is now gone... social with it.

But in my mind, if someone is using a feature like Attack-Follow, doesn't it set some sort of "flag" on their character when it's activated?

Following has never been a feature of the official client or of the server (actually there was a GM command, @follow, but it is disabled, apparently due to bugs, or because it would require special client support), but of unofficial clients. Such clients can deceive the server by saying they are the official client, so there is no easy technological way to detect their use. And of course, they don't advertise that they are cheating.

Point 4 - Do a client check if you're so damned concerned with botting/following. I can see no real reason why any client other than the regular mana client would even be allowed.

Due to our open source nature, it is impossible to force players to only use the official client. (for nonfree games it's doable, but not necessarily easy)

I still do not see how another players lvl can affect my game unless there is PVP.

By hogging monsters, items, and exp. Also some bot stacks are aggressive and will attempt to kill (by pulling monsters) anyone who wanders into their territory.

How about permabanning a real arse for a change instead of the people that like to play it the most? Chat logging is the answer here. All chats. You should do that for your own protection from neglegance in case of a predator situation anyway, which i have heard of now more than once. If we want privacy, we will use an external chat client.

Yes, I think this would be a good idea. Other people do not. Nothing has been done yet. But that does not belong to this topic.

And yes.. those that use bots/follow do play the most, it seems to me. They are usually the ones most dedicated to leveling and actually having a good chat on. They are who you found at the GY the most and most often, so of course they will level faster.

Yes, because they don't have to pay attention while their bots gain exp for them.

Point 2 - This IS a new rule. Botting was deemed to be any AFK activity. If I have 4 screens up and 1 keyboard... I am at my keyboard... not away.. regardless of whether i can see all 4 screens or not. If you can reply.. you are at your keyboard. plain as day to me. I however do not do that.. I may be a little OCD, but i cannot stand having a split screen. For me, it is a laptop and a PC. I have never used more than 2 at a time and can always see both screens, even if they both show the same thing. That means I am at both keyboards, not away from them by any definition given so far.

Please note that http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... =12&t=2922 includes the word "also"; this was taken into account when editing the "game rules" script, which should be in the next server update.

there was a situation as of recent where a player was banned for following while afk.... just folllowing, mind you... not attacking.

It has always been clearly stated that any AFK activity was not allowed. Any statement that can be written as "yes, it's against the rules, but ..." has absolutely no merit.

so is making new rules and not informing the players of it.

Full enforcement of this rule will only happen when players can be proven to be aware of it; i.e. after a warning or after the next server update. Or are you saying the GM private discussions should be public?

PS - WTF is the undress function for in manaplus? That one command cheapens the entire program making it look amatuer, when in fact it is a great client. I say instant ban for anyone caught undressing anyone else without their permission... lol .... seriously though... WTF is that nonsense?

That's visual only; no client can do actions to another character.

[yourmistakes]

i see lots of botters bitching here. allow me to clear up a common misconception. botting is not only afk activity. source.
that has simply always been the most undeniable way of telling if someone is a bot. as platyna said, certain forms of automation have been tolerated out of courtesy, but you all want to have a black and white view of what is ok and what isn't, so you can avoid thinking the same way you avoid actually playing the game. use your brain.
if a program is doing everything for you, then you're botting, point blank. you're all starting to remind me of a kid who got in trouble for putting his hand in the cookie jar one too many times, and now you're mad that mommy moved the cookie jar to a higher shelf.

[mistergrey]

Mistakes: ha!

there was a situation as of recent where a player was banned for following while afk.... just folllowing, mind you... not attacking. I fail to see how that player was benefitting themselves other than being able to be in the same spot as their companion when they got back to PC... and before you tell me they could have been auto-healing...... GM could have easily requested the leader to do alt 1 or say the word heal. That following player was banned for no good reason. A faithful, loyal, regular player at that. WTF? ... and no he is not a friend.. we have spoken on few occasions only but I heard good about them. Banning them for that was a real shitty move, I think and so is making new rules and not informing the players of it. But hey.. you were only really after 1 player anyway, right? and that would have been a real easy way to upset another very loyal player to the game, right? Not to mention a topnotch guy that actually does stand by his moral beliefs more than friendship, which I actually admire, myself.

Ledmitz: I can't say for certain, as I haven't banned anybody for following, but was the player in question who was banned stacking with some attackfollowers by any chance? It would be nice if people would take the time to think about it from the other side of the fence, before going on about how everything is a shitty move, mean, etc. If that player was in a stack of actively attacking players when a botcheck happened, and he did not reply, then he was using automation while afk, which put another way is botting. Yes, they wouldn't benefit from it necessarily, and if they really were just following that does suck. But in the example I just made, of a person following an automated stack, how is the GM checking this group supposed to tell that "player x" was only following, not attacking? What stops any large group in a stack from trying to say their friend only followed them, so they won't get banned for not answering?

As for what you said about us being "only really after 1 player anyway", sorry to disappoint but I could care less who wants to make conspiracy stories about the evil GMs being 'after them'. I personally do my rounds, check for bots and once I get a response I'm out. Considering you said you respect people who stand up for their moral beliefs above friendship, perhaps you could avoid taking offense at stories told to you by others, since you only hear one side of things that way. If you dislike this follow issue, that's one thing, discuss away. But turning it into a personal attack against botters (or 1 player, even), and based on stories you've heard on top of it, doesn't make it all that credible an argument honestly. I'm not trying to mock or put you down by saying this, only saying that basing your opinions and actions on things another player tells you often results in you becoming biased against people, simply for the fact that the person who told you those things dislikes or has issues with them.

[Crush]

Forcing players to use only the official client is not going to happen.

The TMW development team believes in the open source philosophy. One of the pillars of open source is that every user has the right to improve and modify software to better fit their needs. Without giving the users this freedom, there would have never been a ManaPlus client. And as a result the official client would be worse than it is at the moment, because some features and bugfixes of the official client came from ManaPlus.

Also, what's about developers? The moment I change a line of code, recompile and connect to test it I am using a modified client and thus I would be violating the server rules. Sure, you could make an exception for developers, but then you would have to define who's a developer and who isn't. TMW is developed with the Bazaar development model. You aren't chosen as a developer. You just be a developer by getting the source, modifying it, and sending your modification as a patch to the bugtracker. When we wouldn't allow people we don't know to modify the client and test their modifications, there would be no such "wild" development.

[Chicka-Maria]

i see lots of botters bitching here. allow me to clear up a common misconception. botting is not only afk activity.

2. No bots (and by botting I also mean ANY AFK activity in game).

Doesnt matter what the definition or "source" of botting is, Platynas server platynas rule.