The best griefer(s) in game are ... GM(s)?!

[mistergrey]

You can't frillyar in closed buildings. So this can't be a point

- I answered how itenplz can give advantages, I never said it was specific to the situation you brought up. At any rate, if someone wants to make global announcements show up in every tab, that would be awesome, but until then, a GM doesn't really have any better alternative to make players "hear them", that is better than a global announcement. Saying "I was busy in another tab and didn't see" doesn't work as an excuse in a botcheck, for example, and that doesn't even involve announcements. My point is, if the GM holding an event says/announces that they don't want a certain spell used during the event, it is their choice, and if a player ignores this or doesn't check the general tab, then the responsibility lies with the player. Ending an event is much less serious than banning someone, and if someone I botcheck doesn't respond in the 2 minutes, then says "oh sorry, i wasnt looking at this tab", it is already too late - they get banned. Different situation, but the principle applies here too - if you participate in an event, and don't pay enough attention to see the most clear way a GM can communicate with you (aside from whispering every person there individually), then it is not the GM being a jerk if they decide to end the event.

Sure. But making a lot players pissed off isn't good idea, right? Yet this happens quite often.

We don't enjoy pissing off players in general, but when we try to do something nice to entertain players and they ignore when we say not to do something, we don't feel very inclined to continue. Consider how everybody seems to pay attention and notice when we announce an event starting, yet then they say "nobody ever reads globals" when it comes to the rules/specifics being said.

[Chicka-Maria]

In the end this is just a game guys. This was what? yesterday let it go. As for the people who use magic such as itenplz and frillyar its not allowed because it makes the server lag for other players. the gm's say don't do it for a reason, not to pick on you, and not to "hate mages". Just be fair and follow the rules. you think whining about an event ending due to not following rules on a forum will change anything? just move on, you know better for next time now.


Regards,

[Frost]

Hello, you and I haven't really talked before, but we have played together in the graveyard. You're the mage who uses frillyar, and I'm the guy who asks you to stop lagging me to death.

Your posts here show me why you don't feel a need to accommodate others: if you aren't getting hurt, then it's not your problem. That's a valid, if brutal, view; I used that same "rule" when I worked in the financial markets.

I'm sorry I couldn't make it through all the text of your posts. If you have a solution to what you claim is the problem, please present it in usable form and not buried in a 7-paragraph manifesto. Otherwise, see above definition of "your problem" vs. "my problem."

[Hello=)]

The Gm team does not make the rules, we enforce them! We also discuss what actions should be done under certain scenarios. That keeps our actions consistent!

Yet I never seen published list of "spells not to use" and yesterday I discovered that itenplz is "illegal" and "advantageous" spell. Yesterday. After playing game for 3 years.. Either I'm completely ignorant heartless bastard who seeking for Guinnes record or there is something realy messed up. For previous 3 years I thought it's suicidal spell

I am still troubled with your posts and anger over it!

Well, I can understand that. I'm even somewhat sorry about that. As for me I would prefer it to happen in more polite and calm ways. Yet I don't see ways to do it these ways. I attempted it but with your help it has failed. So I had no better options left to try to improve this situation.

You are aware certain magic isn't allowed at spawn parties, two other GM's have told you that in the past!

Correct. But that has been about frillyar spell only. I can also assume kaflosh isn't very good idea as well due to slowdown on some clients. And I did my best to not use them after getting idea it's bad. Though it hasn't worked at all. Other players were successful in ruining events. Maybe approach like that just fundamentally wrong and not going to work, ever? You see, there are new players appear so this will be a permanent condition . And blaming some unlucky noob for doing quite an usual battle action is dumb and frustrating rather than fair and pleasant. So, looks like if goals you've declared were not reached. That's what counts.

So you do know the rules concerning this!

You see, I'm mage. I use magic here and there. That's a way of gameplay. First of all, need to restrict myself to some subset and remember restrictions hardly counts as "fun". If that's absolutely needed, there should be game mechanics to cope with it in automated ways. In fact I believe it could be done in some funny ways like making spell not just fail but also randomly backfire, etc.

The fact that you called me on it, well i can deal with that. You have said i was angry, i was not!

At very least you have been impolite, very badly assumed that I'm going to beg you to continue event (while I was not intending something like that at all) and unlike other GMs you have failed to resolve it in more peaceful ways. There was no constructive discussion. There was no even good explaination why your disabling itenplz is "good" and "fair". While for example picking up 3x3 vs 1x1 pickup areas or using potions isn't anyhow "unfair". You have quite an interesting view of "fairness".

you said I was thinking you want me to keep spawning, I never said that!

I can publish chat log if you insist. However, doing so requires your approval as you're second patricipant and it's private chat. Are you agree I would publish this? It's took place near May 13, 1:14 (server time) and up. I can show you exact places which made me think like that.

You said i wanted to start a war against mages,

Where I told about war? I just has been frustrated with such treatment

where did that come from? Lots of what you said was driven purely from anger! You said we have to play to understand, I have played for 4 years, have 2 players at 99 and never used a client. I have played. You seem to see one truth, your own!

So, have you played as mage, ever? Just curious, no offence meant in any way. Btw, that part was intended to devs, not GMs. That's another persistent TMW problem: devs almost never play it so have quite synthetic views (like Crush does). Does not apply to GMs at all, so don't take is as offence .

You keep asking me why i didn't explain anything, i did, for a second time on this forum. The fact you cant understand it doesn't make me wrong. I cant make you understand the rules, nor can i make you less mad. Thats not my job here!

In fact I have nothing against you. I have something against situation as whole, where events are interrupted in these ways. In fact I'm even somewhat sorry it has been your event when I finally reached my limits. Yet I can't select where I had enough...

You can write anything you want after this post, i wont respond, i wont let myself get trolled any longer,

Oh, don't take this as just trolling, please. In fact I'm rather trying to change situation as whole rather than blame someone specific.

but I want you to think of one thing, of the 20 people that were at my spawn party you are the only one to get belligerent, I had 7 people thank me! The others said nothing.

Yeah. And you even explained why... they haven't reached their limits. I did. And in fact there has been very few mages, just some 3 mages or so. Nard just went offline fast. Another mage ... I suspect it has been he who did itenplz. So on his place it would be the most dumb action to do. Other players haven't faced discrimination at all so they got only small portion of frustration.

Have fun, play the game....... it is just a game!

And you. Hopefully, GHP would have ideas how it can be improved.

[Anonymous!!!]

Sorry to say but this is one of the things I really hated when I was a mage...
When these events happened and I wasn't allowed to use magic I had to use a mule to do them that couldn't even kill a fire goblin...
And the balancing imho has made a disadvantage for mages...
Its why I'm not a mage anymore because I literally at level 65 did less damage and has less health than my mule at level 30 who was an archer.
I think the problems here arise where magic is perfectly fine with player VS monster combat and the mages progress at a similar rate to the other classes, the problems come in when its Mage VS another class whether it be in PVP or an event the classes become way over-balanced.
A low level warrior can easily kill a mid level mage. A high level mage can easily kill the other classes from low to almost max level.
Choosing to be a mage is choosing slow leveling and low defense and weakness against other classes up until the high levels when mages become strongest against the other classes.
The balancing additions stuffed up my magic so my character could only just kill a pinkie with lightning and I am being serious.
My character had very slow leveling as a mage so it would pay off later in the game when I got to high levels and was much more powerful but now my efforts have been wasted, I've been forced to restat and go warrior.
After all I put into my magic it seems unfair that I was forced to go with warrior like that.
Being a different class in competitive events is also a very minor advantage in comparison to players with higher levels.
I also have to say that a lot of the high level character that dominate me on the competitive field are actually players who I saw multiboxing their way to high levels before it was banned.

IMO the best solution would be to even the playing field...
For my server I've been writing several scripts that store the players inventory levels exp and stats etc. so that I can make players have entirely different stats etc in other worlds I create.
I vote the official server should use a similar system to have some event map.
This map is not active unless a player or GM tells an npc they wish to host an event.
GMs equip their caps and the NPC will do nothing wait until they say the event is over and then execute some evacuation script or something that warps all characters in the map back to the world.
Users who wish to enter the event map have to wait until an event is on.
They must pay a small fee to the npc and then they may enter.
All their levels etc are stored and they emerge a clean character into a preparation room.
In here they have a certain number of points to spend on stats, levels and equipment etc.
Once they have spent all their points they tell an npc in there they are ready and they get warped to the arena.
(Unless of course the event needs everyone to enter at the same time in which case it would wait until everyone in the preparation has said they are ready)
The user who hosts the event can set a gp amount required to be paid to join the event or spectate the event etc which would help them pay for the hosting.
If the person who called the event is not a gm they can talk to an npc in the arena and pay for things to happen...
stuff like Spawning monsters, candor-like survival game, pvp survival game, pvp or the ability to drop items (Drop Party) (Maybe they can buy items to drop too?) all costing a bit of gp.
They also call when the event is over.
Users can talk to the npc and leave at any time they like but cannot enter the preparation room or arena until the event is called over.
To prevent users from having an empty event running forever they have to pay for every 5 minutes spent in the arena.

That is my concept and it shouldn't take too much to do and if any of the devs are interested in it going through I would be glad to make it.

Other than that I see no way to make sure everyone is equal in events and until a solution is made it seems these class advantages etc will continue to annoy people and ruin the game a bit.

[Hello=)]

I'm sorry I couldn't make it through all the text of your posts. If you have a solution to what you claim is the problem, please present it in usable form and not buried in a 7-paragraph manifesto. Otherwise, see above definition of "your problem" vs. "my problem."

Okay, I will be short. Please consider idea with flag and GM commands to toggle it. This would also eliminate a root cause of all this grief. It's not meant to cause any extra load but rather to mostly eliminate cancelled events. Every time event cancelled I remember pain I had when I once ruined event myself. This is frustrating to say the least.

P.S. I also want to admit that it looks like if I have been overaggressive in blaming Prsm. From what I understood, he is mostly just enforced existing rules rather than inventing something completely new on his own. At least overall policy isn't his invention, so most of claims about "GM power abuse by Prsm" at the begin were wrong. I'm sorry about that . Hopefully this thread could be turned into something more constructive than just dumb blamings of someone.

[Big Crunch]

I'll put my opinion in here now.

Hello=) you and I have always gotten along well. In events that i do, i forbid the usage of frillyar for various reasons, the main reason is that it, combined with the spawning of large amounts of monsters causes lag for a great deal of people, myself included as i use my cellphone for an internet connection most times. Its a bit hard to spawn and continue an event when nothing on the screen is moving and i have to log back in .

We as GM's have our own vision of what these events are supposed to be. I tend to make mine a little more mage friendly, spawning scythes, jackos and other flying or hard to hit monsters. Prsm perhaps a different tact. One thing i can assure you is that Prsm has no hate or dislike for you personally or mage characters. I've played with Prsm several times using my mage character.

Let me put something else to rest. All of the active GM's DO play the game and we know one anothers alts. So the 'you should play the game to understand' argument is crap.

Lastly, spawn events, Candor announcements, and Cindy quest announcements are extracurricular. We as GMs do not have to do these things. We take it upon ourselves to do them because they help you, the player, gain further enjoyment in playing. We understand that it would really suck to pay 23k for Candor and have only 5 lvl 43 players show up. Same premise for Cindy, considering you have to pay 1k gp for each time you go to Nivalis. Spawn parties are fun for us as well as (hopefully) you. However there are no 'set rules' for spawn parties. We announce it in some fashion, and if it is not an impromptu party in town, we set the criteria of not using certain spells, announce it, and if people continue to use it we generally announce it again. The way i see this issue is like if i were to give you an ice cream cone and then you started dipping your finger in it and threw it back at us after we asked you to stop. As the one giving, it feels like there is a lack of respect and gratitude for something we are not obligated to do. We dont do these things for praise. I do them because when i participated in one as a player it was the highlight of my day and i would like to share that.

BC

[Kull]

The best griefers are GMs, you say?

Challenge accepted.

[Frost]

Okay, I will be short. Please consider idea with flag and GM commands to toggle it. This would also eliminate a root cause of all this grief. It's not meant to cause any extra load but rather to mostly eliminate cancelled events. Every time event cancelled I remember pain I had when I once ruined event myself. This is frustrating to say the least.

Currently, if someone organizes a game (or contest or spawn party or whatever), they get to make the rules of that game. Those who break the rules might suffer consequences. If it becomes too much of a pain to the organizer, they have zero obligation to continue running that game.

Rules are different for each game and for each organizer. You could make a contest where people are disqualified if they use the letter 'c.' As amusing as that might be, you could not ask someone else to write and install code on the server to enable you to prevent the letter 'c' from being typed.

This concept is not unique to the game. Real life works the same way.

[mistergrey]

The best griefers are GMs, you say?

Challenge accepted.

Oh God. Never signing on in game again.

[Nard]

1. A GM does an event. [...] against a GM.

If you have been here you wouldn't have understood a thing as everyone of us. I understood later with the log and Chat.

When a GM decides to cancel an event - for whatever reason - he or she has the right to do it.

I totally agree.

Now trolling a bit :

Doing events is not a duty of GMs - they do it voluntarily. You are not entitled to have events.

What the hell is the interest of being a GM then?

[mistergrey]

I'd like to point out one simple thing, that I feel is being misunderstood very badly. When it comes to spawn events, spells like frillyar and kaflosh (arrow hail, and rain, respectively) are discouraged in general because they cause lag, stop mages from using their best attack, and in the case of frillyar allow mages to kill many monsters at once.

Itenplz, is not "forbidden" at events usually, and personally I allow it unless someone uses it very annoyingly. By my understanding, Prsm simply did not want itenplz used during his event, and that is his right as the one who hosted the event. It was not a matter of "itenplz is not allowed", or "all spells that mages use often are bad for events", but simply "As the maker of this event, I decide that I do not wish this spell used,".

A quick response to Anonymous!: Your ideas about events are interesting, but I'm addressing what you said about magic, and how you had to restat to warrior when magic was changed. As someone who always plays as a mage (mostly), I didn't like that my base magic attack went so low when the skills were introduced. However, when I got my astral soul skill to level 9 (which was very quick, especially since I went speed archer and massacred spiders), my magic attack is now quite a bit higher than it ever was before the skill was added. It still sucks since no other class is penalized that way on their base attack, but I suppose it's vaguely fair since pvp is still very much a mage or speed archer game .

Nard: the interest in being a GM is being able to confirm whether me and Big Crunch are really an item, like the gossip says .

[Hello=)]

Its a bit hard to spawn and continue an event when nothing on the screen is moving and i have to log back in .

I understand the reason behind this. There are also players with weak PCs and crappy internet as well. Yet IMHO anyone intending to play MMOs seriously should try their best to get a better connection.

Prsm has no hate or dislike for you personally or mage characters.

Well, I think it's correct so I have been wrong about blaming him personally.

So the 'you should play the game to understand' argument is crap.

Once again, it's about TMW devs, not GMs. This has been issue all the time I know TMW.

We take it upon ourselves to do them because they help you, the player, gain further enjoyment in playing.

Okay. However as you can see, not all things and methods are enjoayble for everyone.

We understand that it would really suck to pay 23k for Candor and have only 5 lvl 43 players show up.

It's possible to select number of announcements. If someone afraids this situation they have to request 15 or 30 minutes to get extra players. Btw, to the best of my knowledge I never asked GMs to announce Candors for me, yet I never hit mentioned situation.

Same premise for Cindy, considering you have to pay 1k gp for each time you go to Nivalis.

Btw, I don't understand why not to make some automatic announcement for cindy similar to Candor to make it easier.

Spawn parties are fun for us as well as (hopefully) you.

Well, at least some of them were unfortunately not so funny as you can see.

However there are no 'set rules' for spawn parties. We announce it in some fashion, and if it is not an impromptu party in town, we set the criteria of not using certain spells, announce it, and if people continue to use it we generally announce it again.

Well, I guess for me the easiest way to avoid frustration and risk to f...k everything up is to not attend such parties at all. That would both save me from grief and sense of discrimination.

it was the highlight of my day and i would like to share that.

I got you point of view. Yet I don't feel fun after being publicly discriminated by some unreasonable/stupid requirements prohibiting what is part of my standard gameplay and/or leading to (frequent) mass-blaming of particular person or group. As for me, I think this approach shouldn't be a common practice.

[Hello=)]

Challenge accepted.

Good luck with it. Though because a numerous reasons it wouldn'be so easy for you to cause grief to me.

[Hello=)]

Rules are different for each game and for each organizer. You could make a contest where people are disqualified if they use the letter 'c.' As amusing as that might be, you could not ask someone else to write and install code on the server to enable you to prevent the letter 'c' from being typed.

I have no prob's with this approach as long as it's clearly stated in the way I can read and understand and it does not discriminates one subset of people over other. Though spawn parties have certain well defined characteristics and very specific set of problems and if some flag temporarily disables kaflosh, frillyar (and maybe that itenplz if it's so annoying, etc) I see no real harm from this approach. Sure, this wouldn't be useful for all possible kinds of events but will do for spawn parties, which are quite common kind of events.

This concept is not unique to the game. Real life works the same way.

In real life:
1) if policeman (the GM equivalent) would dare to discriminate any citizen or group of citizens over others, the most probable thing is that policemen would face a severe criminal penalty. Even here in Russia laws are quite serious about this kind of offences. Even if there was no intent to discriminate, it's okay to file lawsuit (something like I did). It could be accepted or dismissed depending on judgement.
2) In most civilized countries there is some basic set of laws, often called "Constitution" which are published, so everyone can read and learn them if they want to. This set of laws grants freedoms and overall idea usually that you can excersize your freedom in any non-forbidden ways and all forbidden things are explicitly listed in appropriate laws, etc.
3) Usually, government is required to publish all laws and all changes to these laws in some well defined place where everyone ineterested could read all this and get idea what's going on. I do know this place for my country. I can't say same about TMW.

In TMW it looks like if unlike in RL, "what is forbidden" chosen by "policeman" dynamically and/or at least there is no single place where such list published in well defined ways which are up to date. That's where some difference from RL starts.