The best griefer(s) in game are ... GM(s)?!

[Frost]

t3st3r, if you really want to improve the game, I suggest you host an event some time. Show us how to really have fun.
If you succeed, about a half dozen people will thank you and 1 or 2 will chew your arm off for some perceived offense.

Then host another event a week or two later.

[prsm]

t3st3r

You make some valid points about magic, but take a minute to look at the other side. For the sake of this argument a newer level 40 attends his/her first spawn party, level 70+ mages use commands that either 1) cause them to lag and they die 2) the monster they have been working on gets pulled and they cant keep up!

They could argue, its not fair also!

We have to take a side here. In your scenario the higher level mages get to have fun and kill, and the lower level players die and get nothing. Or we banish said magic and everyone gets to kill and have fun!

Always 2 sides of the coin.

[Hello=)]

t3st3r, if you really want to improve the game, I suggest you host an event some time. Show us how to really have fun.

In fact, when I see it's boring in game and players are idling and I have time, I sometimes launch Candor for similar reasons. That's the only way I know for player to spawn enough monsters and have intense risky fight which adds up. Other ways to do something like this are unavailable to me for technical reasons . Btw it's also one of the reasons I have been so harsh about itenplz. In Candor using it gives huge punishment in XP and drops to caster but really required to keep ppl alive on last rounds and someone have to do it, at cost of his/her XP, drops and high chance to die on slightest lag. So I can offer a clear case where itenplzing monsters is a huge disadvantage. Btw this probably makes it possible to balance things on spawn parties: if you believe someone hogs, why not spawn some fallens (skeles, jackos, etc) to see if anyone would be bold (or dumb) enough to itenplz in these conditions? It would be also funny to count how many "advantages" hogs could get

Then host another event a week or two later.If you succeed, about a half dozen people will thank you and 1 or 2 will chew your arm off for some perceived offense.

You have a point. But if you completely ignore all unhappy players, you can miss some valid points as well, right?

[Freeyorp101]

Firstly, what exactly is the problem with the aggravate spell?

Secondly, if this is seriously a problem, just create a new special purpose spell (with restricted invocation) and amend the aggravate spell to abort if it's nearby (see arrow-hail for an example). You shouldn't need to adjust the server source much, if at all, and then you wouldn't need to enforce unwritten and seemingly arbitrary rules.

Still, it would be better to address the problem at its root. Why do you believe the aggravate spell creates an unfair advantage? If being able to instantly pull large groups is a problem (which, from what I'm reading, it sounds like it is) it would be trivial to alter such that it would only affect a limited or random number of monsters based off spellpower.


---Freeyorp

[Hello=)]

You make some valid points about magic, but take a minute to look at the other side. For the sake of this argument a newer level 40 attends his/her first spawn party, level 70+ mages use commands that either 1) cause them to lag and they die

I'm agree that lags are bad. Though in fact it's a technical defect. It's not a player's fault on it's own.

2) the monster they have been working on gets pulled and they cant keep up!

It could be annoying, but does not grants any adavntages in damage per second (so killed monsters count not getting seriously higher). And it you think it's bad, why not spawn couple of fallens/skeles/jackos/whatever else strong&fast to see how fast this lvl 70 hog would run on next itenplz?

They could argue, its not fair also!

If we'll continue this logic a bit further, we can get idea that level 95 warrior with good equipment and proper stats does much more damage per second than lvl 40 with noob's equipment and bad stats. If they happen to work on some monster, easy to guess the result... and should I admit that lvl 95 warrior would kill far more monsters in the same time frame? Which is "not fair" if you really care about more or less equal amount of drops per player. In fact, hi-level player of any class would outperform low-level player of same class. This is expected as it's part of game mechanics.

We have to take a side here. In your scenario the higher level mages get to have fun and kill, and the lower level players die and get nothing.

Let's admit that high level of same class (almost) guaranteed to make more damage per second than low level so getting more drops(or have better def, etc). And high level speed archer with potions will probably beat mages on many kinds of monsters while having cheaper attacks. Why there is no claims it's unfair compared to lvl 40 players?

Or we banish said magic and everyone gets to kill and have fun!

Well, except that game mechanic with levels does not assumes everyone would have the same chances for drops when fighting together. Teaming low-levels and high-levels of same class is always a problem: due to game mechanic high level player will usually receive almost all drops (due to higher damage per second). Why mages to blame while for example don't telling a single word on speed archers with potions who shooting like machine guns? I can imagine speed archers with potions would beat anyone else in closed areas on monsters like slimes or fluffies (though this requires stats gathering but I don't see any magic attack which can counter such a massive damage per secons).

Always 2 sides of the coin.

I know there is no perfect solution and no perfect balance. But why only mages are blamed? That's what I call unfair. From my point of view at the moment it looks like if high level speed archers with potions are fastest in killing many types of monsters. Yet nobody yells that "potions are unfair against lvl 40 players". While you can easily imagine who kills more monsters and gets more drops.

[prsm]

sadly t3st3r, your writing but not listening! We write and you argue, you need to listen and understand! its all there, your too quick to argue!

It would be fun for you, but not others! there it is , very basic. Cant say it easier, your only one player out of many, we have to think of everyone, not just you.

[Frost]

There are many ways in which a mage can use spells to interfere with others. itenplz on large mobs, and watch the warriors run around swinging uselessly at hard-to-hit targets. Use itenplz to box in the archers. Cast arrow hail or kaflosh on a busy map and watch half the people struggle for air.
There are many ways in which archers can cause trouble too. Same for warriors. In fact, the next mage who uses frillyar when I'm in the graveyard might learn a few tricks.
Of course there are ways to cause problems for others. I'm not sure the solution is to modify the game in a perhaps futile attempt to prevent this.

So much effort spent analyzing why others are wrong....
Fine. The event was all screwed up. It ruined the fun. It didn't ruin the fun. It would have been better if only ____. It's time to move on.

At a fundamental level, we're all empowered here, so let's drop this Players vs. GMs. or Devs. theme. If you want to see something better, then make something better. Candor is passé, and Cindy battles not much better.

In the past, guilds held regular events. Those included:
Foot races
Quiz games
Constume contests
Hide and seek
Guess the number and (maybe) win a prize

This is all perfectly achievable by a player who has a little motivation and a little time to plan and publicize the event. I've done it.


tl;dr: Quit bitching and do something about it. See my .sig.

[Chicka-Maria]

Firstly, what exactly is the problem with the aggravate spell?

Secondly, if this is seriously a problem, just create a new special purpose spell (with restricted invocation) and amend the aggravate spell to abort if it's nearby (see arrow-hail for an example). You shouldn't need to adjust the server source much, if at all, and then you wouldn't need to enforce unwritten and seemingly arbitrary rules.

Still, it would be better to address the problem at its root. Why do you believe the aggravate spell creates an unfair advantage? If being able to instantly pull large groups is a problem (which, from what I'm reading, it sounds like it is) it would be trivial to alter such that it would only affect a limited or random number of monsters based off spellpower.


---Freeyorp

its not really the spell itself thats bad, its the servers capability to handle it. It lags when someone uses this spell on a map full of people.
maybe it should be limited to how many monsters it grabs depending on the number of players on the map.

Regards,

[mistergrey]

I really don't feel like itenplz/aggravate needs to be changed or prohibited at all events, to begin with. Honestly, while mages aggravating huge mobs on a map with many players (example: an event) often does result in some lag, I've often had the game lag in the same situation, simply from using ingrav/lightning at times.

Perhaps something could be done about magic triggering lag, but I think the real issue is simply: A GM can decide on particular rules for their own events, and it's not necessarily a matter of discrimination. I don't really understand why it keeps coming down to "why is itenplz bad?", when it's a matter of personal choice on the GM's part. I allow itenplz in most of my events, but I think Prsm has every right to not want it used in his, if that's what he wishes.

[prsm]

For the sake of this argument a newer level 40 attends his/her first spawn party, level 70+ mages use commands that either 1) cause them to lag and they die 2) the monster they have been working on gets pulled and they cant keep up!

They could argue, its not fair also!

We have to take a side here. In your scenario the higher level mages get to have fun and kill, and the lower level players die and get nothing. Or we banish said magic and everyone gets to kill and have fun!

I will say it again, i think its unfair to the lower levels, and i think this game needs more players, and they will be starting off at lower levels! They wont want to stay if they get lagged out and die or loose the monsters they are fighting to an itenplz.

[Chicka-Maria]

I will say it again, i think its unfair to the lower levels, and i think this game needs more players, and they will be starting off at lower levels! They wont want to stay if they get lagged out and die or loose the monsters they are fighting to an itenplz.

I agree with this, if 1 gm follows a rule so other players can play fairly i think other gm's should consider the same thing due to misunderstanding. it can confuse players to who's rules to follow if every spawn event has different rules. Also its best to have them so it can be fair to all players, its not fun dieing because of a lag fit.

Regards,

[Hello=)]

sadly t3st3r, your writing but not listening! We write and you argue, you need to listen and understand! its all there, your too quick to argue!

That's untrue. I read and in fact I admitted there are some valid points. And yes, you have to try to make fun for everyone. But lvl 40 would not (and should not) be equal to lvl95 of any class, so high-profile players would be in serious advantage anyway. That's a fundamental property of game engine. That what makes leveling up sensible after all.

They wont want to stay if they get lagged out and die or loose the monsters they are fighting to an itenplz.

If this causes lag, it have to be avoided. But that's a 1st time I hear complaints about lag from itenplz (unlike frillyar which is known to be troublesome). At least it's used in Candor (full of monsters and players) all the times by many players. Yet nobody blamed it for lags. In fact, I have noticed that some recharging of lightning by some mage could cause some short lag at server side (yep, testers are paying attention to details). I seen frillyar can cause some traffic boost. But never seen itenplz doing something really harmful in amounts which would cause complaints. Are you really sure about this claim?

As for hard to hit monsters, I believe it is a fundamentally wrong approach in shared environment. Newbies have to learn how to strategically choose monsters when playing in tightly populated world. Else they will have huge disadvantage in other places of the game as well. If someone attacks hard to hit monster, it would take a while to kill. Then some high-profile players would kill all monsters around and finish cleanup by hitting last remaining monster(s), outrunning newbie in couple of hits. Then it's easy to guess who would have drops. Voila, newbie wasted some minutes for nothing. The only place where newbie can try to kill tough monster alone and don't have fundamental disadvantages in drops is some deserted area without players. That's hardly about events at all. That's a so universal and common property of the game mechanic that I fail to understand why only one particular (and probably not event worst) occurence is blamed so much while other occurences are ignored. That's what I call discrimination. Now my time to ask to read. Can you get idea: the advantage of speed archer with potions over others is so high that people in shared environments are often making such person to die by bringing extra monsters and running away. Yet I never seen GMs prohibiting use of potions on events "because it's unfair" while this approach can easily make even seasoned tanks frustrated.

[mistergrey]

The difference is, GMs aren't there to ensure that players are not frustrated. Potions don't seem to have any effect on other people playing in terms of lag, they simply make that character attack faster or with more strength. Nothing stops players from dragging monsters to warriors, or mages as well, and it happens often - either for mischief, revenge, or plain not caring if other players survive lol.

Why do you insist on calling it discrimination, that a GM chose to say "this spell is not to be used for this event", and then reacted to it being used? As a very basic example, I could hold an event and say "If I see anyone using concentration or iron potions during this event, it will end". This might seem unfair, but really it's just a matter of preference and maybe planning, if the event has a theme. Nobody has said "you must never use itenplz in an event", it just happened to be the case in this particular event that provoked this topic to begin with. In that sense, it really does not matter if it causes much lag in general or not. To be considered though, is the fact that during events there are often large numbers of players and monsters in a small area, and this does make lag more frequent, even from actions that cause no lag elsewhere.

I don't mean to argue lol, I just feel like this conversation is going in circles...

[Hello=)]

There are many ways in which a mage can use spells to interfere with others.

Agree, but there are many ways non-mage can interfere with others as well. One good example are speed archers with potions who can easily frustrate almost everyone by getting all drops and "stealing" lot of XP. Yet nobody prohibits potions on events even if they're putting virtually everyone at disadvantage. In fact, I never seen GMs to consider this as "fairness issue".

itenplz on large mobs, and watch the warriors run around swinging uselessly at hard-to-hit targets.

Correct, but nothing prevents warrior to follow monster and hitting it. This maybe causes some change in playstyle and maybe some annoyance, but other classes apply similar hit-and-run style all the time, aren't they?

Use itenplz to box in the archers.

I don't see how it harms archers. They have long range attack so they even don't have to move often, and moving on battlefield to avoid being hit by monster and keeping optimal distance is usual for them anyway. So what counts as disadvantage? Yet, archer with speed skills and potion could easily outshoot any tanks around and even mages while archer attacks are far more cheap than any magic attacks. In fact I only know 2 kinds of monsters which give clear advantage to mages (and so anyhow worth of spending overexpensive attacks on them): yetis and jackos. Everything else appears to be better for other classes. Virtually nobody uses mage characters to grind items.

Cast arrow hail or kaflosh on a busy map and watch half the people struggle for air.

That's why I asked for flag, btw. That's a simple but efficient workaround for imperfect in-game feature implementation. Just asking will not work: since rules are changed all the time and there always will be clueless noobs, if it's technically possible, it's doomed to happen. Ideally, these spells have to be reworked in the way they cause less troubles. For frillyar I can imagine that it's possible to increase damage but reduce number of hits and increase delays between them, so while overall effect remains more or less same, far less events would be produced (which should both offload server and cause less traffic, right?).

There are many ways in which archers can cause trouble too. Same for warriors. In fact, the next mage who uses frillyar when I'm in the graveyard might learn a few tricks.

Correct. But the problem is that none of GMs ever considers anything else as "putting others at disadvantage". Other classes never blamed for anything. This does not looks completely fair approach.

Of course there are ways to cause problems for others. I'm not sure the solution is to modify the game in a perhaps futile attempt to prevent this.

At very least, if something causes some real technical issues (like lags, etc), it's clearly some technical issue which can't be really resolved in human ways as humans are even less reliable so it will not work (have you ever heard words like "fool-proof design"?) . Blaming player(s) for just using in-game feature(s) is futile enough as well.

So much effort spent analyzing why others are wrong....

Because it's not the first time it happens. I once ruined event on my own. So I know how it feels. Every time it happens again, I remember this feeling.

In the past, guilds held regular events. Those included:
Foot races
Quiz games
Constume contests
Hide and seek
Guess the number and (maybe) win a prize

To my taste those are/were fairly boring compared to spawn parties. Also: races were obsoleted by speed skill. Quiz games were almost always centered at western culture. So I always ignore them and dislike them: in USSR area government took some special efforts some ages ago to deter western culture spread. This haves it's results, even if western people fail to understand that there are some cultural differences, putting non-western people at disadvantage. So if I'll do it myself, western people would simply dislike it for the same reasons. Costume contests and hide and seek are fairly boring to my taste. So at the end of day I think I like spawn-related and fight-related events more than that. It's also obvious to me that I can't be good in doing things I don't like myself. That's probably why I personally would prefer extra Candor round to all listed events .

This is all perfectly achievable by a player who has a little motivation and a little time to plan and publicize the event. I've done it.

Hopefully I outlined my point of view.

tl;dr: Quit bitching and do something about it. See my .sig.

At least I'm more or less calmed down. Yet so far I think it would be better for me and everyone else if I would just ignore spawn events to avoid facing discrimination once more as long as it's the only things server staff is going to do. If things are not going to improve, let's be it so. But I do not came to the server to be treated like this and do not want feel what I do when event is aborted these ways. If server staff fails to understand that simple point, there is nothing I can do (except maybe quiting this server forever when I will have enough of such treatment).

[Hello=)]

Why do you insist on calling it discrimination, that a GM chose to say "this spell is not to be used for this event", and then reacted to it being used?

Because only mages have to face certain inconvenience and risks to be blamed.

As a very basic example, I could hold an event and say "If I see anyone using concentration or iron potions during this event, it will end".

The "only" problem is that it would be more easy to find shark in the middle of desert than to see such event.

This might seem unfair, but really it's just a matter of preference and maybe planning,

"If it looks like a dog and barks like a dog, it is a DOG". Not to mention that rules should be crystal clear before event starts. Else it's just feels like some enforcement of personal GMs preferences in quite trolling ways.

I don't mean to argue lol, I just feel like this conversation is going in circles...

Agree.