Online list and privacy [split from: TMW promotion]

[o11c]

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have gun.

It is a really stupid idea to assume that any bad guys are not competent.

And finally - what sort of harmful information can seriously be gathered from seeing whether you're online or not? (P.S., the GM's have a command to hide their online status. But I never remember which parts are controlled by @hide and which one is @invisible)
It's not like we have your real name (unless you gave it up), social security number (least secret "secret" information ever), bank account number, ...
Seriously, it's just an avatar.

---

If you're getting non-hypothetical in-game abuse, report it. Anything public can be witnessed, and if it's in whispers ... remember when I proposed a solution for this exact problem? But for some reason people freaked about the idea of a non-public log of such things.

[mistergrey]

o11c,

the hide command makes it rather difficult to socialize as to most I would show up offline. As well, I'm fairly certain I remember that you won't get certain types of messages when using it, either from party, guild, whisper, I dunno. To be clear, it was never the online list I had a problem with, it is making available detailed logs of when everybody is online, sweetly gift wrapped. I just don't feel like having people mapping out my online times, as well as the usual gm log stalking. I definitely think such a thing should have had a discussion beforehand - if the main argument for making this info available is "somebody else will eventually", then could that idea not be applied to other areas? Perhaps next fully randomized botting features can be implemented into the official client, because somebody will surely find more creative ways to get their automating done eventually. Sorry if that comes off as rudely sarcastic - it is not meant to, but by the same token I do not like others taking my privacy lightly, and others surely share the sentiment.

Even a non public log of players' whispers would be rather invasive. I don't know that there's one person I would trust with access to those.

[Nard]

I dont see any offense from you and from nobody else mrgrey. I also can understand in some way Frost because he was surprised to discover these Data.

Please do believe me when I say it does not take a long time to a regular player to have a precise view of the GM's time schedule and even of it's variations as soon as he/she is concerned with it. It requires a little more time to gather the data about a player because there is not the gm log i am sure that 99,95% of players including developers have by no mean to retrieve much more information than they already have. And be sure that i will not give them, I am not a teacher here I admit that there is something else one could find with these data which could have some influence on role play, but not on players. I will of course say nothing about it, and, anyway, there are simpler means to get the same info. the amount of data to treat doesn't justify the result. You can get information quite quickly with little data, extra information gives just more precision on the parameters you want to estimate. suppose, for example I want to have information about your presence time interval, I would for example again estimate the mean hour of your presence and deviation interval If I estimate it over a month I should obtain quite a good information. I can add even min and max for both connection and disconnection. If I want to obtain twice more precision on the mean time I must use 4 times more data. On that particular point I don't think it is worth the job. and anyway data over several years are useless.
To be clearer if I did not say enough. these data even with character names will not allow to retrieve much more personal information than players can actually get with their client.

If these data are hidden or given to admins who have not much time to allow to this collection I fear that it is a simple burial of them.
Then I don't see any more interest in chatting and posting about what is wrong in game if we are unable to get quantitative information when chance gives us the possibility to do it (this info were not collected with this intention)

@Chicka & Big Crunch:
Just have a closer look to past purged accounts numbers and you will see weird things appear which justify a deeper analysis and that data digging is not a mischief (with only 3 couples of data).

Because the online list allows you to see who is online in the present at that exact moment, the statistic data will allow the person to just see what time the player comes on MOST of the time. With the online list you can easily click on a name and whisper friends or tell when your friends are online WHEN your online. Like i said before its much more useful then having a statistic data about online playing habits. Thats why i feel differently from the 2, Hope you understand that now.

The first is a sample of the second mom. and each time you have a look on the online list you make a sample too, that allows you to make rough stats and retrieve information when your mind compares it to the past; thus you do exactly the same thing: MOST means here that you get average over WHEN (time). Thus you have less information in the first case but it is persistent (this is the main point of discussion). But it is more appropriate to get information on TMW population. Online playing habits could be nice information, but much more private and sensitive, more they are difficult to define in an objective way, and server has no mean to collect such info at the moment.

Finally, if no statistical us is made of these files I will think about a funny way to convert them into an audio file that could make a contemporary piece suitable as a musical background.

[Nard]

I just don't feel like having people mapping out my online times, as well as the usual gm log stalking.

It was already done, even before you were a GM ( quote various posts)

Perhaps next fully randomized botting features can be implemented into the official client, because somebody will surely find more creative ways to get their automating done eventually.

It is already done and not randomized ones and even to manaplus.

[Even a non public log of players' whispers would be rather invasive. I don't know that there's one person I would trust with access to those.

Is there something like that on main server or is it planned? if so it would be illegal in Europe at least.

[mistergrey]

Nard, you are right that players can gain this data from observation. But most will not, either from laziness, lack of knowledge, not caring. This is much different from offering these stats to everybody publically, and pretty much inviting people to use them for whatever they wish. You, as a player will not be affected as much by this as anyone with a GM level and a lot of enemies will, though there is plenty of abuse potential there too. You can take this lightly, but it is often safest to think cautiously of the consequences before acting.

As well, before there was only people who had problems with me stalking me via the GM logs, and the posted hours I played online on average at that time. That has changed, and I have no particular issue anymore with that type of harassment - I'm not in a rush to repeat the experience.

Neither manaplus nor the official client has full automation features, for use of botting, that I am aware of. Besides, it was an example. It's one thing for something to be available through outside sources, but if we will just hand this info out, ourselves, this is just asking everybody possible to make use of it.

Part of why this is such an issue, is that it has upset a few people, and very helpful ones at that, and could well inspire people to leave due to feeling like their privacy has been invaded. This type of response should be met seriously, but so far has only been replied to with arguments making light of their concerns - this feels like the wrong approach to me.

[Nard]

I am now a bit upset too because there is no real reason to worry about these data except if they contain sensitive information I am not aware of. I begin to think about this possibility because of the energy which is deployed against them. Anyway there is no private information that comes along with character presence and any attempt to do it is likely to fail as I think I showed:
@elkaida: It is stupid to insult V0id, we are not the same person.
And nobody agreed with publication with encoded names which could solve the problem.

Thus I resign trying to retrieve any kind of information or help to do it. It is admin's and project leaders' job after all.

http://www.r-project.org/
And for those who hate command line like me:
The R Commander: A Basic-Statistics GUI for R

posted in august 2011:
you, mr grey
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6520164/tmw/mrgrey.txt
other GMs
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6520164/tmw/gms.txt
ar that time stats were useful and nobody said a word about them.

[o11c]

My main point is best resummarized as this: we have not reason to believe that people are *not* collecting online player statistics for nefarious purposes. (Although I'm still not quite sure what nefarious purposes there are)

I don't wish to revive the whisper debate, there are quite legitimate reasons not to record them.
But there's no way it would be illegal, recording such things is the norm - forum PMs here, Facebook, every email you ever send/receive, even if you want to delete it.

[Big Crunch]

Nard, thank you for proving my point. In that context it was useful. That was the information being filtered and used for a reason by someone inn authority. As the info is now, it has no valid use other than "just to have it out". The argument of "anyone could do this, so I should" is illogical. Anyone could set fire to my testicles, does that mean I should go ahead and do it? Someone could hack my account and ban everyone, should I just go ahead and give out my password? No, I would think that might be a bad idea. Just like I think giving people the tools to scam the system is a bad idea

[Nard]

Nard, thank you for proving my point. In that context it was useful. That was the information being filtered and used for a reason by someone inn authority. As the info is now, it has no valid use other than "just to have it out". The argument of "anyone could do this, so I should" is illogical. Anyone could set fire to my testicles, does that mean I should go ahead and do it? Someone could hack my account and ban everyone, should I just go ahead and give out my password? No, I would think that might be a bad idea. Just like I think giving people the tools to scam the system is a bad idea

I proved nothing but that's discussion is useless. You wrongly feel that your privacy was attacked. I still think you are completely wrong:
There are far much faster easier way to put fire on your testicles, and you are one who know it the best as I unintentionally already used one of them. There is nothing common between what you say and the use that can be made of these data because they include no information that can be used to scam stalk or troll someone. On the opposite purge info includes some and it is public. Anyone cannot do the job because it requires skills that are not that frequent, it is still possible to acquire this skill IF you have time enough, interest enough, will enough, then you can do the job.
Finally comparing char IDs to password is clearly exaggerate, not to say more. Maybe you could learn some statistics to understand that they cannot do miracles, just help you to better understand what is under your eyes, just as some image or sound treatment tools can do it. ( this comparison is fair because image and sound treatment are sometimes of statistical nature, dithering for example)

I give up because the Drama which is made around of these is really out of proportions with the importance of the use that can be made with them. TMW will not have any interpretation of these data which will stay the private property of Argul. Sorry for TMW. World is still spinning round

[Nard]

My main point is best resummarized as this: we have not reason to believe that people are *not* collecting online player statistics for nefarious purposes. (Although I'm still not quite sure what nefarious purposes there are)

I don't wish to revive the whisper debate, there are quite legitimate reasons not to record them.
But there's no way it would be illegal, recording such things is the norm - forum PMs here, Facebook, every email you ever send/receive, even if you want to delete it.

I didn't say it correctly: of course any information you can see, even if private has to be stored somewhere.
publishing it or spying it is illegal.
Personal presence in public places is not private.
My main point is best resummarized as this: we have no reason to believe that people are collecting online player statistics for nefarious purposes. Obviously we didn't use the same data or statistical model.
Could I have an access to your data?
I note a possible source of bias: Could the Atlantic ocean has something to do with it?

Nard

[mistergrey]

Nard,

Nothing bad has been said about use of statistics. I only feel like making the logs of the online list available to everybody is a bit unnecessary, when you can have a few select people have access to them, and publish the results they get.

It is my personal opinion that making those available can cause problems for players, by allowing easy access to player routines. If encoding the names would guarantee anonymity, that would be great. There is nothing to hide, but this bothers me because I have already had some history with how far some people will go using the GM logs to try to discredit someone (and that is not saying anything about valid complaints) - and with what some players will do to antagonize others, over some argument or just to troll them. I have great faith in most people, but I never underestimate what a clever, vindictive person is capable of, with the right tools in hand.

I did not say anything about the stats used for my gm poll, because they were helpful, they did not cause me (the person they pertained to) any worry, and they only showed my online times for the time being. A person's schedule can change a lot in a short time, and I did not find that invasive. In this case, it will cover a longer time period than those (AFAIK), and a few people have already brought up concerns. You may feel that my opinion is wrong, but I have not tried to discredit what you said, and I do believe keeping stats could have a lot of positive uses as well. I only want to see this topic get more constructive than repeated opinions, ignored complaints, and ultimatums.

Is there no way to compromise, like by only posting the results of those logs and limiting access to the source, or perhaps encoding or not including names somehow? Other people can and will do this on their own I'm sure, but I think a lot of worries would be eased with the knowledge that not every angry player out there has these files on hand.

[gagolthegreat]

I don't see how it would be useful to everyone to see everyone's online habits. I think it would encourage harassment to be honest, and trolls. Should the statistics be viewed by the public? definitely not in my opinion. As i said in my other post everybody deserves privacy and should have that right to it. Is there a way everybody can see their own stats without seeing everybody elses? I think this would be much better than everyone's statistics being public. considering it would be their option to show it to everyone by their hand, not anybody elses.

Regards,

I wholeheartedly agree with Chicka-Maria on this issue.

[Nard]

Nard,
Nothing bad has been said about use of statistics. I only feel like making the logs of the online list available to everybody is a bit unnecessary, when you can have a few select people have access to them, and publish the results they get.

Do you have anything against the whole data package could be published with encoded names (thus anonymous info), so the summaries, graphs and any interpretation can be verified and discussed by anybody who wants to do it?
(there are enough encryption algorithms freely available to make it easy and we could even make our own which would be even safer)

It is my personal opinion that making those available can cause problems for players, by allowing easy access to player routines. If encoding the names would guarantee anonymity, that would be great. There is nothing to hide, but this bothers me because I have already had some history with how far some people will go using the GM logs to try to discredit someone (and that is not saying anything about valid complaints) - and with what some players will do to antagonize others, over some argument or just to troll them. I have great faith in most people, but I never underestimate what a clever, vindictive person is capable of, with the right tools in hand.

I know what you refer to. Nothing can stop a dishonest person: cheat, lie, break every rule or convention. Now such a player (with the implied means) could have also given falsified online data. Now we know we have the true ones and can use them to show he would be a liar, just as it has been done when some players used truncated gm logs.

I did not say anything about the stats used for my gm poll, because they were helpful, they did not cause me (the person they pertained to) any worry, and they only showed my online times for the time being.

They almost surely came from this data set. Argul may confirm, he was the author of the post. I meant that nobody worried that he could be able to produce such data

A person's schedule can change a lot in a short time, and I did not find that invasive. In this case, it will cover a longer time period than those (AFAIK), and a few people have already brought up concerns. You may feel that my opinion is wrong, but I have not tried to discredit what you said, and I do believe keeping stats could have a lot of positive uses as well. I only want to see this topic get more constructive than repeated opinions, ignored complaints, and ultimatums.

I still think you are wrong but have no trouble with it. I do agree with you about the constructive aspect of contributions. I think I tried to be constructive since the beginning the beginning of this thread (and the one about purges too) since I proposed two compromises that seemed quite fair to me. It seems that I don't speak english sufficiently well, or perhaps I make too long posts; that made people unable to read or understand me until your actual post. no!

Cordially yours.

Nard

[gagolthegreat]

I guess if we go forward with using statistics, the best compromise would be to have some "cups" (most progress, money harvester, etc) awarded each month WITHOUT having the details posted online...

[Nard]

I don't see how it would be useful to everyone to see everyone's online habits. I think it would encourage harassment to be honest, and trolls. Should the statistics be viewed by the public? definitely not in my opinion. As i said in my other post everybody deserves privacy and should have that right to it. Is there a way everybody can see their own stats without seeing everybody elses? I think this would be much better than everyone's statistics being public. considering it would be their option to show it to everyone by their hand, not anybody elses.

Regards,

I wholeheartedly agree with Chicka-Maria on this issue.

The answer was just under Chicka's post but I can repeat:
With these data (and not cheating them, but you cannot because the original is kept safe) you cannot retrieve much more information on a single player (not only character) than you actually can by having a regular look on the online list and some features of your client. You can just make them a bit more precise (maybe one or two digits on the parameters estimate) what a big deal! Just ask Chicka how she would troll or harass someone with these data.
On the other side having the raw data (maybe with encoded names to calm everybody) makes you able to verify, or have a different interpretation of the summaries that can be extracted of it...

Nard