Are botting clients owned by GHP?

[John]

Following the kind advice of Crush http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 39#p132039 i start this new tread repeating a part of what i wrote there. Since i am not sure that where is the appropriate section i am also asking kindly to the moderators of the forum to move it in the right place.

Dear GHP,

for my understanding argul was part of the GHP.
One member of GHP had botting clients and other members might own them too, this seems hypocrite. I don't see how we, players, should trust such people that owns botting clients for TMW since the rule of their own server states that bots are not allowed and links to such programs are deleted by the moderator of the forum.

I would like a serious explanation from the GHP members about this, because right now to my eyes it seems that the *rule* is enforced only to the players. You might say that possession is different from usage but how could you prove that such software hadn't been used at least one in the official server?

Regards.

[Nard]

I downloaded Manabot at the time it had it's site ( manabot rules). I tried it too (behind the keyboard) but I had no fun using it and not enough will to become rich. Thus I put it in tthe toilets and flushed.

Argul is a programmer (remind he is one of the manamarket authors), and gamer too. It seems normal to me that he can have interest in bots. As a player I had never to complain about him and alts I may be aware of. Thus I have not even the smallest clue that he could have used bots. Probably he tried them as I did and I cannot see anything wrong with it.

As a member of testing group, a good bot could be useful to me (us): It could allow to have estimates of grinding times, exp rates in various conditions and allow better quest design or feedback. Also, with appropriate tools it could help to characterize lags and perhaps help to solve this problem.

edit: I'm not a GHP member and have never been.

[Crush]

The TMW Committee members have no reason to bot on the official server. Really, what reason do they have to cheat in their own game? Most committee members either have access to cheat commands or direct contact to those who do, so they can have anything they want anyway. Claiming that they would bot is not even insulting, it's just absurd.

But do they have access to bots? Yes, in fact they do. Let me tell you the whole story.

A few years ago, when I was still a developer, botting really became obnoxious on the server. Bots became smarter and started to try to actively mislead our GMs. We had to do something about that. In order to fight bots more efficiently, we had to study the bot directly. So we started to do some research to find the program which the botters used, and we found it. It was a fork of the official Mana client, and it came with sourcecode (at least the author was honoring the GPL).

We posted a download link to the bot on our internal forum to analyze it and find how to detect it. I was part of the team which did that. We found out how it works, which methods it uses to detect GMs and how it reacts to GMs. We even found some easter eggs which made it pretty easy to detect. This allowed our GMs to detect the bot much more quickly and efficiently.

We also found an interesting comment in the bots sourcecode. The author said that he would stop developing this bot, when a certain server rule were revoked. This pretty much was considered extortion by us: "Do what I say, or I ruin your game". Needless to say that we didn't even consider doing that.

Since then, the developers kept a close eye on the bot development, so we were able to react on new bots and inform our GMs how to counter them. That's the reason why developers have access to these clients.

[Big Crunch]

Regardless, the only client we officially support is Manaplus. The old Mana client (version 6.0)has been retired but is still supported somewhat. The promotion of an alternative client on these forums is not allowed.

[ko12upt]

moved from http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 13&t=17140 by Crush

However other servers could allow bots and the could take advantage of such clients.

He is free to publish his bots on their forums, then.

When you would like to discuss this topic further, please create a new thread.

This thread is about argul leaving TMW development.

Actually this thread was and still is dedicated to his leaving if im not correct. In turn he left particular information that was ment to stay in the mana world community, you me and any others that might be able to further the project. So to say this thread is about argul leaving your also not stating the information that he has left due to his absence is worth as much as he was here. Which would lead to my conclusion argul put foreth alot of time and dedication to the development of mana world but you my friend are holding absence to links that were provided to his work which was open source what is the the rule of open source information? You already know the answer. So this is how i see it if a person dies you give them a proper funeral correct? You have done the exact opposite you didnt let the man leave with peace you stole information in my eyes and many others, A perfect example of Dictatorship "A dictatorship consists of rule by one person or a group of people. Very few dictators admit they are dictators; they almost always claim to be leaders of democracies. The dictator may be one person, such as Castro in Cuba or Hitler in Germany, or a group of people, such as the Communist Party in China"(http://depts.alverno.edu/dgp/GEC/Types% ... nment.html). If you truly dont decide to open the links to the information he has left behind I will leave the mana world community for good and never to return. I dont think you mind but in all honesty that would make you someone i would not like to relate to. As posted in a url above you would be no better then Hitler, Castro or a communist party in china. I understand you dont want to release it publically but please release information through a pm to people who actually care about his work.

Thank You
Ko12upt

P.S Dont think about deleting this post i have a screen shot of everything that i quoted and was written.
Have a nice day

[AnonDuck]

I've known quite a few people(myself included!) who have gotten into TMW specifically for the challenge of writing bots for it. It's fun. Many of these people have later turned into solid contributors to the project and even worked their way into GHP. I see absolutely no problem with this as long as they've given up their old ways. And they always give up their old ways once they realize they can actually do something productive with their talents and help drive a community of nice people forward.

Writing botting software is a great way to learn how this game works under the hood and has led to much development, gameplay improvements, GM procedures to catch botters, and rule modifications.

[AnonDuck]

In my experience nobody has ever really abused such cheat commands. I've seen some pretty good jokes and WTF moments.. I've also seen them used for testing.. But with few exceptions I've never seen them used for personal reasons. In fact if someone were to cheat for personal reasons it would probably be noticed and there would be quite a big stink.

People with access to such commands generally run or have access to a testing server where they can play around and do whatever they want without being unfair to players.

[Crush]

I'm sorry, ko12upt, but i have a personal policy of not replying to accusations from people who compare me to Adolf Hitler, unless the accusations are about me being responsible for organized mass murder of at least a million people.

[mistergrey]

If you truly dont decide to open the links to the information he has left behind I will leave the mana world community for good and never to return. I dont think you mind but in all honesty that would make you someone i would not like to relate to. As posted in a url above you would be no better then Hitler, Castro or a communist party in china. I understand you dont want to release it publically but please release information through a pm to people who actually care about his work.

Thank You
Ko12upt

P.S Dont think about deleting this post i have a screen shot of everything that i quoted and was written.
Have a nice day

First off: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Secondly: The things posted were not just argul's own work, nothing was stolen from him, you or anybody else.

Third: I find it very strange that as soon as this topic was started, suddenly 2 new forum users decide to make their first posts, just to express outrage at "stolen information". It's as simple as this - we do not support pornography, therefore we will not leave links to it on this forum, even if the person who posted worked Really hard on making it. In a similar fashion, we do not support handing out new botting clients. Even when people get really upset and try to make it a moral issue.

Nobody wants you or anybody else to leave the game over something as meaningless as this. It is really up to you if having a new bot client to play with is more important to you than the game itself.

[John]

Dear Crush,

Did you realise that the official client has a botting feature?

Regardless, the only client we officially support is Manaplus. The old Mana client (version 6.0)has been retired but is still supported somewhat. The promotion of an alternative client on these forums is not allowed.

*Follow* that's feature that i am talking about, your own committee decided, not long ago, that it's against the rules, why didn't you remove the links to your own official Client? Doesn't it hurt the project? That's curious.

Did you also realised that your own posts are contradictory?
We can't have the source code of that bots. If someone post links to botting clients by your own words they must be removed, yet the official client has bot capabilities and the committee decided that rules, however the links remained.
Can you please explain yourself now? it doesn't seem to me that you have a clear idea of what you are talking about.

Moreover did you realise that your own action changed the nature of this project?

A program is free software if the program's users have the four essential freedoms:

The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

A program is free software if users have all of these freedoms. Thus, you should be free to redistribute copies, either with or without modifications, either gratis or charging a fee for distribution

By removing the links you just removed the freedom to of argul to distribute the software in this project. Thus i start to consider this project non free and i am asking to remove the free word from its description.

Did you also realise that your own action hurt this project more than that links?

Dear MadCamel,

i am not stating that there are issues to write bots, i am saying that this project had rules, one of them says no bots allowed, yet, the official client has a bot feature, yet a GHP member posted botting clients, yet Crush delete such hurting links.

Maybe is there something that we don't know about these so hurting clients?

Can the GHP explain this contradictory situation please?

Regards.

[Crush]

Dear John

I never said that those botting clients may not be distributed. They just may not be distributed on this forum.

I never said that those botting clients may not be used. They just may not be used on this server.

We have no right to forbid the development of these bots, but neither do you have the right to force us to support them.

In the interest of all players who want to play honestly and do not want to be pestered by bots, I will not allow bots to be distributed via this forum.

[AnonDuck]

I'm not even a part of the TMW Committee, but I can answer that pretty simply.

First, read Crush's post above about developers and GMs needing to understand how botting clients work. Then read my above post about how botters can and usually do turn into productive members of the community.

It should then come as no surprise that someone involved in TMW indeed had developed botting software at some point. They then decided to throw a hissy fit and post links to it on the forum, which of course is against the goals and rules of the forum. So of course the links were deleted.

But really.. I'm only saying the above for reasonable people to read. Your posts are so full of logical fallacies that I'm not even sure where to begin picking them apart. They seem to be crafted in such a manner in order to either elicit a response (some form of trolling).. or more likely from a psychological point of view you are using circuitous logic to attempt to prove your own views as correct to yourself.

I have very bad insomnia tonight, so lets pick it apart a little..

Did you also realised that your own posts are contradictory?
We can't have the source code of that bots. If someone post links to botting clients by your own words they must be removed, yet the official client has bot capabilities and the committee decided that rules, however the links remained.
Can you please explain yourself now? it doesn't seem to me that you have a clear idea of what you are talking about.

These few lines contain multiple fallacies, the most obvious on the surface being the Fallacy of Many Questions - someone asks a question that presupposes something that has not been proven or accepted by all the people involved. This fallacy is often used rhetorically, so that the question limits direct replies to those that serve the questioner's agenda. You really do seem to have an agenda here, so that's about right.

I also see a False dilemma – two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are more. For instance, the Follow feature is quite useful when traveling long distances in a group. You are attempting to place an client feature in an either/or category; either it's for botting or it's not, when this is far from the truth. The rules say no following in battle, they say nothing about the many other uses of follow.

By removing the links you just removed the freedom to of argul to distribute the software in this project. Thus i start to consider this project non free and i am asking to remove the free word from its description.

As an OSS developer I must point out the way you quoted the GPL out of context(Yup yet another fallacy: Contextomy. SUPER easy to refute - FACTS!). If you read the GPL from start to finish, it's pretty clear that distributing the source code is the responsibility of anyone who supplies binaries of said software. Since the TMW forum and website does not officially distribute *any* of this botting software, it is under no obligation to distribute source code. Nice way of playing a supposition though.

.. Oh there's so much more, but I can't go on. Too tired. I hope the reasonable people reading this got a laugh at least Apologies for pseudo-flaming and fatigue induced lack of judgement. Anyone else love going to Debate Club in school?

[meway]

lol, missed you MC