webcam.now.im (spying)

[meway]

Another reason a text based client would be useful. Could lead right into http client development :p

[Frost]

These webcams were added without prior discussion. I'm glad to see some open conversation about this.

kook has offered to selectively "remove" characters if the requester logged them in while kook was available to remove each character. Note that this requires a person not only give kook a list of any characters they don't want in the webcam, but also actually log in each one at a time that's convenient to kook.

Several people have told me they asked kook to remove them, but it wasn't honored. I don't know if that was due to some breakdown in the cumbersome process to remove, bad faith, or just miscommunication. I also don't know if the "remove" lists persist across logins or if the lists are consistent across webcams. I don't know if anyone can verify that kook is honoring requests.

Several people have asked me in the game if I could please ban the webcams. I replied that as far as I know, it doesn't actually violate any game rules. I always ask why they request this, and the answer is usually that it makes them uncomfortable.

Two people have told me on IRC that the webcams make them deeply uncomfortable, and they don't feel like they have any way to "protect" themselves. One of those people says s/he is being actively stalked and believe the stalker is using the webcam for that purpose.

That's my official experience.
My personal experience is that I don't want webcams monitoring the game for people to watch what I do and say in public chat. In response to the argument that I should have zero expectation of privacy, I observe that in fact I do expect conversations to be limited to the context unless I am made aware that they will be used in other situations for purposes not necessarily related to the game. In short, I expect that my in-game chat is transmitted to other players but not to the whole Internet.

I also don't wish to give kook a complete list of all characters which anyone in the game might observe me on. Some of them are secret, and I don't wish to tell kook those alts, but on the other hand, I also don't wish some people who know those alts to be able to observe my activity and chat in the game without logging in themselves.


kook, I'm interested in your response to the concerns I raised about publishing chat, people who report being unable to be "removed," persistence of the removal lists, and how to verify that you are honoring your promises to remove people. I also ask if there is a less cumbersome method for people to be removed. For example, what if one person collects and sends you a list of characters who have asked to be removed from your webcam? That would avoid having to tell you the player behind each character.

[WildX]

This webcam thing seems to be more problematic than it is useful. I don't understand why this is needed, especially when it makes so many people uncomfortable.

[Freya]

I particularly love the idea.

Congrats kook, is a quick and easy way to see who is and what is happening in downtown hurnscald.

Could have more webcam elsewhere.

[Crush]

These webcams seem to be a polarizing topic in the community. I think a poll is in order to see what's the majority opinion. I added a poll to the question. Feel free to encourage people ingame to vote in this poll so we have a representative result.

[Cassy]

Hmm... if the poll will be like 50 yes votes and 40 no votes, then we still have 40 people who don't feel very well with them, including a chance that some of them don't want to continue playing like this ( + random number of players that didn't participate in the poll).

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea and I personally don't have any problems with the webcams, but too many people seem to be complaining. Features that can cause people to leave TMW shouldn't be released (or shouldn't stay in this case).

edit: Ok, here goes the poll. I voted for the last option because of what I wrote above.

[Crush]

It's an opinion poll, not a vote.

I agree with you that a small but notable majority which feels its privacy violated should be respected, but that's not a decision I have to make.

But I don't agree with you that any change which causes people to leave is automatically bad. Every change causes some people to disagree, but you have to look at the net effect. A change which would cause 10 people to leave but motivates 20 to come would be a good change, in my opinion.

[Sanity]

What privacy?

[o11c]

What privacy?

QFT

[Cassy]

It's an opinion poll, not a vote.

Thanks for correcting. I somehow enjox mixing those two up.

I see your point. I have some doubts though, but I'll just follow the discussion and poll.

[Crush]

Maybe a less privacy-infringing way of doing this would be to hide chat and character names. That way you can't identify the players which appear on the screenshots and their privacy would be protected.

[Dyna]

I guess I fail to see the point of having a camera in the game? Can someone, hopefully the person who made this thing, please explain to me why this is a good idea? What benefits towards TMW could this possible bring that could outweigh the negative aspects of recording our sometimes childish, rude, irrelevant and pointless town chatter?

Why even bother having this around? Why not just either record a video, or get a lot of updated screenshots and post them around the internet? I don't see this a good tool for getting this little game out there. I see it more as a way for the already established players to be a little more voyeuristic. Part of the fun of a game is a certain amount of anonymity that is granted by turning yourself into a cluster of pixels and not be judged for your actions, should they not break any rules. This however, if a few people are running around town without their pixel clothing and wearing a mouboo hat just to be weird for a few minutes, paints a bizarre picture of the game to someone looking into this camera. After all, you have to have been around for a little while to understand the alt+2 crowd and the weird things that can happen when you are usually high enough level to get to Hurnscald in the first place.

Maybe having the cameras someplace else? Not sure how you could stick one in the graveyard without dying but someplace where people can see the action of the game...rather than the strange behavior that usually happens in town.

[baseballboy]

What "privacy" is being infringed here? webcam.now.im can't read my whispers, he can't see my trades, he can see GENERAL chat, and he can see our movement. That's not privacy; EVERYONE can see those things. I do not believe this is a matter of privacy evasion.

-BBB

[veryape]

I don't have any problems with the webcam at all, people can watch the online-list while not being connected themselves, and what i say in public is just that, public.

I don't know the reasoning behind the camera, it could be cool to have on the site maybe, as it is now i guess not many watches the cam anyhow. If someone wishes to stalk me while i am in town - please go ahead. I guess no-one could live such a boring life

[kook]

publishing chat

i think this horse has been beaten to death already

, people who report being unable to be "removed,"

i am only aware of ComfyCheeks and it has been taken care of. My suspiction is the person must have been contacting meway, not me. There wasn't any info on the webcam page about who to contact at that time, i guess. Any others?

persistence of the removal lists,

the removal list is permanent and shared across cams.

and how to verify that you are honoring your promises to remove people.

just walk up to the cam, dude

I also ask if there is a less cumbersome method for people to be removed.

as the webcam page currently says:

made by kook. to be erased from the cams, contact kook in-game or in the forums, or sirdancealot on irc. Just maybe you can even manage to do this without me knowing who you are:) (just whisper to me in-game)

For example, what if one person collects and sends you a list of characters who have asked to be removed from your webcam?

no problem.

btw, you may also want to raise your concern about the issues coming from the manaplus' implementation of the erase feature, some traces of erased characters still remain, they make bubbles and accidental tooltips with their name can be seen.

Character names have already been hidden, and i can hide chat. But that doesnt seem to be about privacy, but about accountability.

I dont want to make people uncomfortable chatting in hurnscald. I'm considering removing the cam from hurnscald, possibly moving it to candor, where it could be useful, or cool, or not, or not making people uncomfortable... Or maybe the right wing of GY. But i wasn't able to get a GM to talk with me about setting the spawnpoint yet.

Thanks for the comments everyone, both for the positive and negative.

As on the reasoning behind it veryape, it just seemed like a fun idea. And it evolved into some interesting drama. I dont really know what im doing. I did half seriously hope that it could find a place next to the screenshot on the tmw homepage:)

edit:
fresh usage statistics. http://imgur.com/a/p63dQ