The official server flamewar topic

[blackrazor]

Jax

So, if Platyna breaks EU law, then it's okay for TMWC too?

If Platyna trolls, then it's okay for TMWC too?

TMWC was advertised as the better alternative, not the "more of the same" alternative.

I did say, many times, that both sides of this have made a lot of errors, and neither side should claim a top-admin role of this project without the community voting for it. I'm sure a viable method can be set up to ensure a fair vote; we have a lot of smart people. But both sides seem more interested to maintain their power in their own separate fiefdoms, and take cruel potshots at their opponents, no matter how bad this makes the project look to outsiders (prospective new participants).

I was here, and so were you, and it's fair to say Platyna ran the show, without successful opposition, for years, and that the project grew under her administration. To rewrite history now about that is disingenuous. I'm sure she made a lot of enemies, and those chickens have all come home to roost, and I'm fine with that. The one issue where I support Platyna, is that if everyone else was so set on breaking with her, and making their own server where she could have no influence over them, they should have started with a fresh iteration and not cloned the client's data without authorization and across EU jurisdiction.

[o11c]

So, if Platyna breaks EU law, then it's okay for TMWC too?

As someone who actually bothered to READ that law, I can say that what we've done is allowed on either of at least two completely independent clauses.

Come back when you've actually read the thing, instead of just repeating things you heard.

I did say, many times, that both sides of this have made a lot of errors, and neither side should claim a top-admin role of this project without the community voting for it.

Again, you complete miss the point. The community *has* voted - both in-game and on the forums - by continuing with us. Do you seriously thing any of the forum users are unaware of this argument? But how many support you? How many supported Platyna at first and later retracted their claims? I'll admit that not everyone *in* the game is aware of it, but, given the disruptions and news entries, a significant number of them do.

And when you add all the *former* community members who returned - to *us*, not to Platinum - whether through the grapevine or from Platyna's bulk mail - the fate of this argument is sealed.

I can't speak with certainty of how the playerbase sees Platyna now, but she used to be known as the one who made drunk @broadcasts and did trivias. I *can* speak of how players see *me* - as an admittedly-distant figure who does important things to keep the game running.

I was here, and so were you, and it's fair to say Platyna ran the show, without successful opposition, for years, and that the project grew under her administration.

A key word there is "successful". Many times we or our predecessors tried to make some change necessary to improve the game, but Platyna prevented us.

I wasn't here more than 3 years ago, so I don't know what it was like back before that. However, it is fair to say that, over the last few years, The Mana World has stagnated under Platyna's care.

[Jaxad0127]

So, if Platyna breaks EU law, then it's okay for TMWC too?

If Platyna trolls, then it's okay for TMWC too?

Once again, individuals are doing it, not TMWC.

I was here, and so were you, and it's fair to say Platyna ran the show, without successful opposition, for years, and that the project grew under her administration. To rewrite history now about that is disingenuous. I'm sure she made a lot of enemies, and those chickens have all come home to roost, and I'm fine with that. The one issue where I support Platyna, is that if everyone else was so set on breaking with her, and making their own server where she could have no influence over them, they should have started with a fresh iteration and not cloned the client's data without authorization and across EU jurisdiction.

Platyna didn't run much. Past around mid 2008, she hosted, oversaw GMs, and occasionally got in the way. GHP and later TMWC ran it. The active devs and GMs voted and the result was the move. If they hadn't moved, a lot of them would've quit in frustration because of Platyna, leaving the project dead in the water. And once again, Elven supported the move.

Do you think every time an open source project changes hosts, they should completely abandon all their old data and start fresh with the new host? I would point out again that Platyna was not the original host for TMW (and no matter how many times she claims otherwise, that won't change). Her primary role for a few years now has been host, not admin, not developer, not God.

We're working on a complete (as possible) timeline of what happened over the last few years. Hopefully, it will shed some light on the issues that most players never saw.

[blackrazor]

@ o11c

Regarding the EU law, neither you nor I are lawyers. We can debate all day long on the finer points of it, in truth it matters more what a judge would say, not us. In any case, I doubt anyone will spend money bringing it to court. My point was that both sides (including you) were quoting EU law to say that .org or .net both broke it in different places, or didn't break it, depending on which partisan side you were on. My point was that both sides get dirty from this, it's not productive, and it makes the whole project look bad.

Regarding voting = staying on the populated server, it's a false argument. People stay where the activity is, regardless of whether they agree or care about the leadership. That was true when Platyna ran .org, and it's equally true now that the TMWC runs .org. Now you can ask, why is .org populated, and not .net? I think a large part of that is how the move was handled, with .org pointing to a new place without players even at first realizing what had happened, and Platyna took a while to decide to add .net, and even then .org is the default on manaplus. As any advertising agency can tell you, inertia and branding are a big part of any consumer decision, and the way the move was handled was very clever in determining where that inertia and branding was going to go.

It's an entirely different question to ask: "Now on the populated server, populated by the same forces that determine why a flock of birds is here, and not there, would you rather vote for your top-admin, or leave it the way it is currently." And to be fair, a lot of players are either not going to care, or may be now more comfortable with the status-quo, because it's what is current and safe. But if you had asked those same players (not devs) six months ago, they probably would have said something similar, either don't care, or status-quo, which in that case would have been Platyna.

My goal in having a vote, was not to overthrow or change the TMWC, but to have a unifying activity, that whatever the result, would bind both .org and .net and reunite the community. I think the big problem was in how the changes were handled, not that change happened. Change is inevitable. But there are both constructive and destructive ways to achieve your goals.

[blackrazor]

So, if Platyna breaks EU law, then it's okay for TMWC too?

If Platyna trolls, then it's okay for TMWC too?

Once again, individuals are doing it, not TMWC.

I was here, and so were you, and it's fair to say Platyna ran the show, without successful opposition, for years, and that the project grew under her administration. To rewrite history now about that is disingenuous. I'm sure she made a lot of enemies, and those chickens have all come home to roost, and I'm fine with that. The one issue where I support Platyna, is that if everyone else was so set on breaking with her, and making their own server where she could have no influence over them, they should have started with a fresh iteration and not cloned the client's data without authorization and across EU jurisdiction.

Platyna didn't run much. Past around mid 2008, she hosted, oversaw GMs, and occasionally got in the way. GHP and later TMWC ran it. The active devs and GMs voted and the result was the move. If they hadn't moved, a lot of them would've quit in frustration because of Platyna, leaving the project dead in the water. And once again, Elven supported the move.

Do you think every time an open source project changes hosts, they should completely abandon all their old data and start fresh with the new host? I would point out again that Platyna was not the original host for TMW (and no matter how many times she claims otherwise, that won't change). Her primary role for a few years now has been host, not admin, not developer, not God.

We're working on a complete (as possible) timeline of what happened over the last few years. Hopefully, it will shed some light on the issues that most players never saw.

The "individuals" argument can be used equally well to shield both Platyna and TMWC members. But it's a false argument. These individuals, in top-admin roles on their respective .org and .net servers, know very well that they represent their respective communities. There is no magical switch to make someone an "individual" when it is convenient, and a community representative otherwise. People in power have to be careful what they do, because it will be looked at, because they are influential.

Again, you can try to water down or rewrite Platyna's role with timelines or whatever else. For several years, prior to March 9th, 2013, she ran the show and the project grew. Now after March 9th, 2013, we hear many stories about how awful Platyna really was, and how she stunted the project, and it would have been better off without her, etc. I read those huge linked threads that the TMWC provided, and what they showed was that the drama was always there, and old tears run deep, but that once upon a time, the community wanted Platyna to stay, and they even convinced her to stay when she wanted to leave. Which means that once upon a time, she was important and useful to the community, or that they were comfortable with the safety of her running it, in any case. What does Platyna's exile say to future potential contributors if they too one day run afoul of popular consensus after having put in a lot of work on the project? And what will people say of the current regime, after their time has passed? Remember that people are both deceitful and unkind, and you will often only hear the negative dirt when it is safe to air it. That alone doesn't make one particular regime more satisfying than another, just a new turn of the page of TMW history.

And again, it was not just a host change. It was a regime change. The data should never have been cloned. Either move it outright (if you have that legal right), or start fresh (if you don't). This is why organisational constitutions exist, to mediate these sorts of changes in an orderly fashion. You guys seriously need to write one.

[o11c]

The data should never have been cloned. Either move it outright (if you have that legal right), or start fresh (if you don't).

We moved it, carefully disabling the live data.

If I knew then what I know now, I would have advocated more strongly for shredding our the live filesystem, to put her in a more compromising position. But at the time, we didn't expect Platyna to "go batshit insane" and were more concerned that deleting everything would be a "dick move". The filesystem contains far more than just the data, it contains quite a bit of infrastructure, and undeniably also a lot of junk.

Still, reactivating the site was a deliberate action on her part.

You guys seriously need to write one.

• We don't Duck with you.
• You don't Duck with us.
• All decisions (common or major) are made by the consensus of the TMWC.
• ElvenProgrammer, as the owner of the domain, has final authority over major decisions.

This is what we have always *tried* to operate under, and, post-Platyna, we actually can in all matters.

[Dyna]

What they showed was that the drama was always there, and old tears run deep, but that once upon a time, the community wanted Platyna to stay, and they even convinced her to stay when she wanted to leave. Which means that once upon a time, she was important and useful to the community, or that they were comfortable with the safety of her running it, in any case. What does Platyna's exile say to future potential contributors if they too one day run afoul of popular consensus after having put in a lot of work on the project? And what will people say of the current regime, after their time has passed? Remember that people are both deceitful and unkind, and you will often only hear the negative dirt when it is safe to air it. That alone doesn't make one particular regime more satisfying than another, just a new turn of the page of TMW history.

The community has lived under her thumb not because we wanted to. There was no choice in the matter. You either tried to stay as far away from her as possible when she was on, or you played nice...if you didn't you got banned. Her only use was to be a host, and eventually that ran out along with a lot of patience. Future contributors should take a look at this as a learning experience of how not to treat this project. It's about respect and Platyna has given none so why should anyone respect her back? A self made queen is not royalty.

In the end, Platyna was given time to properly voice her objections to the server move. She didn't say anything. How hard is it to understand this?

[Freeyorp101]

Again, you can try to water down or rewrite Platyna's role with timelines or whatever else.

I am leading the timeline initiative. I would hope that everyone involved could trust me as a neutral arbiter here.

I insist that all events must be neutrally, factually worded and objectively backed up with references such as forum posts or IRC logs from public channels. I have been pushing to declassify many relevant threads for this purpose. If you do not feel the end result is representative of the truth, I of course will be open to factual, objective amendments. In advance, to everyone: No ad hominem, please.

I have reached out to all sides to get as many statements and responses as possible, and will repeat the exercise before its release. Unfortunately, some people seem to feel that this is not worth their time, or that asking for responses to statements by the other side constitutes my defending the other side. I hope that everyone would be more open in the closing round, in order to represent as wide and as factual a range of events as possible.

I have already reclaimed all of my old IRC logs prior to 2010-07-27 and after 2011-12-23, with the rest physically en route via UPS. Almost everything happens via IRC, so referencing key events there will be crucial.


---Freeyorp

[blackrazor]

The data should never have been cloned. Either move it outright (if you have that legal right), or start fresh (if you don't).

We moved it, carefully disabling the live data.

If I knew then what I know now, I would have advocated more strongly for shredding our the live filesystem, to put her in a more compromising position. But at the time, we didn't expect Platyna to "go batshit insane" and were more concerned that deleting everything would be a "dick move". The filesystem contains far more than just the data, it contains quite a bit of infrastructure, and undeniably also a lot of junk.

Still, reactivating the site was a deliberate action on her part.

You guys seriously need to write one.

• We don't **** with you.
• You don't **** with us.
• All decisions (common or major) are made by the consensus of the TMWC.
• ElvenProgrammer, as the owner of the domain, has final authority over major decisions.

This is what we have always *tried* to operate under, and, post-Platyna, we actually can in all matters.

Hmm. I thought the whole reason why the move was done in stealth mode, without talking about it openly on the forums, or even acknowledging that it was a regime change at first, was precisely because you fully expected Platyna to go "batshit insane". That was the reason given by the TMWC for all the secrecy. So which is it now? You expected her to, or not?

Also, if you honestly believe you owned the data, and if she was "just a host", then how is it a "dick move" to erase your property before you leave? Only if there is doubt about who really owns the data, would someone err on the side of caution, and leave a copy of the data intact on Platinum.

So you're telling me that if Elvenprogrammer decided tomorrow, to either point the domain themanaworld.org back to Platinum or to just disable it, that you would all honor it and just accept that as the new reality? You wouldn't get a new domain and continue on, just as Platyna has? You would just quit?

Consensus of the TMWC? Really? What about the flamewar between o11c and frost, http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... =4&t=15583 over AGPL vs. GPL licensing. It sounded like there was a lot more than just calm rational discussion going on over there. Without a proper arbitor, who will mediate those kinds of things in the future?

[Rill]

Concern Troll

From http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll:

A concern troll visits sites of an opposing ideology and offers advice on how they could "improve" things, either in their tactical use of rhetoric, site rules, or with more philosophical consistency.

A typical formulation might involve the troll's invocation of a site's espoused ideals alongside a perceived example of hypocrisy (such as contrasting "we value free speech" with the banning of a "dissenter"), and with a call for some relevant reform by the troll. This reform will frequently be burdensome or silly - the concern troll's message is: "I have some concerns about your methods. If you did these things to make your message less effective, it would be more effective.". Surprisingly, there are people who spend so much time on the Internet that this is actually a thing they worry about.

One common tactic of concern trolls is the "a plague on both your houses" approach, where the concern troll tries to convince people that both sides of the ideological divide are just as bad as each other, and so no one can think themselves "correct" but must engage in endless hedging and caveats. This preys on a willingness to debate critics and allow dissent; everyone wastes time discussing the matter and bending over backwards, so as not to appear intolerant of disagreement, all to the great amusement of the troll.

From http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... cern+troll:

A person who posts on a blog thread, in the guise of "concern," to disrupt dialogue or undermine morale by pointing out that posters and/or the site may be getting themselves in trouble, usually with an authority or power. They point out problems that don't really exist. The intent is to derail, stifle, control, the dialogue. It is viewed as insincere and condescending.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28I ... cern_troll:

A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose actual point of view is opposed to the one that the user claims to hold. The concern troll posts in Web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group.

Duck Test

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test:

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

[Len]

@ o11c
but to have a unifying activity, that whatever the result, would bind both .org and .net and reunite the community.

.Net

.Org


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ5-BTdcqjk
I don't really see what incentive exists for .Org to reunite/merge with .Net, as the community seems united already. I don't believe these players are mindless sheep who will stay with whomever is currently running the server without exploring alternatives. I think they are smart enough to realize that most of the development team is with .Org and because of this .Org will probably get the better content and support going forward.

[Whistler]

A classic technic at work: attacking the critics instead of adressing the problems they exposed.

[o11c]

A classic technic at work: attacking the critics instead of adressing the problems they exposed.

lol

[WildX]

The community *has* voted - both in-game and on the forums - by continuing with us. Do you seriously thing any of the forum users are unaware of this argument? But how many support you? How many supported Platyna at first and later retracted their claims? I'll admit that not everyone *in* the game is aware of it, but, given the disruptions and news entries, a significant number of them do.

People are dumb, you tell them they'll have less lag if they vote for you and they do; you tell them Platyna is evil and they start hating on her. No one ever looks at the big pictures, and you take advantage of that. You and Platyna should do politics

[Len]

A classic technic at work: attacking the critics instead of adressing the problems they exposed.

Why address problems that aren't valid or adopt ideas that you believe are unnecessary/flawed just because someone keeps repeating them ad nauseum, while ignoring your arguments against such ideas? At some point your going to call a spade a spade and dispense with the niceties.

People are dumb, you tell them they'll have less lag if they vote for you and they do; you tell them Platyna is evil and they start hating on her. No one ever looks at the big pictures, and you take advantage of that. You and Platyna should do politics

People are smarter than you think, just look at the Xbox One backlash. People simply will not stick around if they feel they are being taken advantage of, and they are more than capable of assessing the information given to them and making their own conclusions.