The official server flamewar topic

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blackrazor
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor »

o11c wrote: Despite some allegations, I am not the same person as either Platyna or Frostypants. The *only* post that I have made on the .net forums is a legal request to delete my data, as I longer consent to Platyna keeping it.
If you really had wanted it deleted, instead of just hassling Platyna, you should have just deleted it yourself during the server move. If TMWC really owned that data, then any copies that were not in your possession should have been deleted. If Platyna had backups, then send her legal notice to delete those too. All of it, not just your personal data. That is assuming that TMWC (of which you are a top-admin) really owns the data, and is taking sole and full legal responsibility for its care.

EDIT:

That is assuming, of course, that the TMWC really owns that data. If Platyna owns it, then it never should have been moved, and then you have a case to ask for her to remove your data alone. But the data cannot belong to both of you. When you made this TMWC, you took on the legal responsibility to litigate for ALL of our data, not just yours. The data should be with one of your groups, or the other, but not both. You (along with your fellow top-admins) took command of .Org, so it is your responsibility to sort this out on behalf of all of us.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by o11c »

Sorry, but we can't afford to hire a lawyer, despite Platyna making it *very* easy to prove her fault.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor »

o11c wrote:Sorry, but we can't afford to hire a lawyer, despite Platyna making it *very* easy to prove her fault.
"Can't afford to" is not an excuse. When you make a decision, you are bound to the legal obligations it carries. You wanted to run the show? Then you are bound to the legal responsibilities that go along with it.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Nard »

o11c wrote:Sorry, but we can't afford to hire a lawyer, despite Platyna making it *very* easy to prove her fault.
learning how to read is cheaper than hiring a lawyer for nothing.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Crush »

blackrazor wrote:"Can't afford to" is not an excuse.
Mybe you would like to start a crowdfunding initiative?
  • former Manasource Programmer
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Please do not send me any inquiries regarding player accounts on TMW.


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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor »

Crush wrote:
blackrazor wrote:"Can't afford to" is not an excuse.
Mybe you would like to start a crowdfunding initiative?
I have no authority to crowdfund on behalf of the TMWC. I am not an admin or TMWC member. The TMWC members brought their organization into existence, put themselves in command of the project, so it is their responsibility to litigate for the security and sole possession of the data. Not mine. It is their responsibility to raise the funds, pay the bills, mount the legal challenges to protect all of our data. Not mine.

There are privileges that come with command, but there are also responsibilities. Not for me; I'm not in command.

My only responsibility, as a humble player, is to obey the rules and to remind the TMWC of their legal obligation to protect and secure all of our data, since they claim ownership of the project and the data.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Platyna »

A lie repeated milions of times will not be truth.

1. I did not get crazy - I was outraged and I had valid reasons to.

2. I do keep exclusive rights for the data because I was given that data by previous admin, who was Ultramichy and not even Elven or Bjorn.

3. I never were informed about any plans to move.

4. There was no voting - most of the community even today is unaware that something has been changed.

5. And now to deny the biggest lie ever: after I agreed to not interfere with development and Bjorn and Elven agreed not to interfere with community and administration (that was in 2007 AFAIR). NO developer EVER had to ask me to make ANY change in game, they even changed the server files as they see fit. So I had NO WAY to keep development of TMW in stagnation.

6. The only problem with me was that developers started to interfere with the community management and administration DEMANDING GM priviledges, which I consequently refused to grant them and this is the only reason of that mutiny.

7. And finally: I NEVER gave developers ANY ownership rights to the server data, and I NEVER allowed ANY offsite backups.

8. I made a "cut hands off" post because I was accused by one of developers of DDOS, hacking and threatened with a legal action. And this was grave offence against me.

Regards.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Rill »

Re: The Feeding of Trolls

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolling:
Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore it, because responding tends to encourage trolls to continue disruptive posts – hence the often-seen warning: "Please do not feed the trolls".
A popular article defining and explaining the issue of Internet Trolls was released by Tim Campbell in July 2001, and included the mantra, The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.


From https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/What_is_a_troll%3F:
A common piece of advice regarding trolls is "Please do not feed the trolls." It is sometimes abbreviated as "DNFT" or "DNFTT." While many seasoned veterans of online communities consider this advice useless, because in a community of any size, someone will react to the troll's posts, others still consider it to be the only effective method for dealing with trolls. Not fanning the fire will, at the very least, not make the situation worse.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor »

Rill wrote:Re: The Feeding of Trolls

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolling:
Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore it, because responding tends to encourage trolls to continue disruptive posts – hence the often-seen warning: "Please do not feed the trolls".
A popular article defining and explaining the issue of Internet Trolls was released by Tim Campbell in July 2001, and included the mantra, The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.


From https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/What_is_a_troll%3F:
A common piece of advice regarding trolls is "Please do not feed the trolls." It is sometimes abbreviated as "DNFT" or "DNFTT." While many seasoned veterans of online communities consider this advice useless, because in a community of any size, someone will react to the troll's posts, others still consider it to be the only effective method for dealing with trolls. Not fanning the fire will, at the very least, not make the situation worse.
Rill you are confused. This is the official flamewar thread regarding the server move, officially created and sanctioned by TMWC member and forum admin, Crush. As far as I can see, most of the posts in this thread are on topic, dealing with various facets, issues, grievances, and suggestions regarding the server move and its aftermath. Yours however, is not. This is not a thread on the care and feeding of trolls. Perhaps you need to start your own properly named thread on troll care, and post your most valuable information there?
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Rill
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Rill »

blackrazor wrote:
Rill wrote:Re: The Feeding of Trolls

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolling:
Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore it, because responding tends to encourage trolls to continue disruptive posts – hence the often-seen warning: "Please do not feed the trolls".
A popular article defining and explaining the issue of Internet Trolls was released by Tim Campbell in July 2001, and included the mantra, The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.


From https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/What_is_a_troll%3F:
A common piece of advice regarding trolls is "Please do not feed the trolls." It is sometimes abbreviated as "DNFT" or "DNFTT." While many seasoned veterans of online communities consider this advice useless, because in a community of any size, someone will react to the troll's posts, others still consider it to be the only effective method for dealing with trolls. Not fanning the fire will, at the very least, not make the situation worse.
Rill you are confused. This is the official flamewar thread regarding the server move, officially created and sanctioned by TMWC member and forum admin, Crush. As far as I can see, most of the posts in this thread are on topic, dealing with various facets, issues, grievances, and suggestions regarding the server move and its aftermath. Yours however, is not. This is not a thread on the care and feeding of trolls. Perhaps you need to start your own properly named thread on troll care, and post your most valuable information there?
DNFTT
blackrazor
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor »

Rill wrote:
blackrazor wrote:
Rill wrote:Re: The Feeding of Trolls

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolling:
Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore it, because responding tends to encourage trolls to continue disruptive posts – hence the often-seen warning: "Please do not feed the trolls".
A popular article defining and explaining the issue of Internet Trolls was released by Tim Campbell in July 2001, and included the mantra, The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.


From https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/What_is_a_troll%3F:
A common piece of advice regarding trolls is "Please do not feed the trolls." It is sometimes abbreviated as "DNFT" or "DNFTT." While many seasoned veterans of online communities consider this advice useless, because in a community of any size, someone will react to the troll's posts, others still consider it to be the only effective method for dealing with trolls. Not fanning the fire will, at the very least, not make the situation worse.
Rill you are confused. This is the official flamewar thread regarding the server move, officially created and sanctioned by TMWC member and forum admin, Crush. As far as I can see, most of the posts in this thread are on topic, dealing with various facets, issues, grievances, and suggestions regarding the server move and its aftermath. Yours however, is not. This is not a thread on the care and feeding of trolls. Perhaps you need to start your own properly named thread on troll care, and post your most valuable information there?
DNFTT
I apologize for feeding Rill for off-topic posting and trolling in our officially sanctioned server-move flamewar thread. :alt-1:

DNFTT !
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by WildX »

This is what I don't understand: the only things the TMWC needed Platyna's permission for was changing the game rules and the "GM and dev at the same time" thing, correct? After this post from Platyna you didn't know what to do with the multiboxing rule, so you asked her in this thread. After about a month Platyna failed to deliver a clear answer to your question (we all know she was busy with her own life), although she did reply to you, and it looks like she was starting to discuss the issue (as seen in this post made by her), but she was "cut off" by the server move that happened about a week later. Anything else you didn't need to ask permission for, as Platyna herself said:
Platyna wrote: 5. And now to deny the biggest lie ever: after I agreed to not interfere with development and Bjorn and Elven agreed not to interfere with community and administration (that was in 2007 AFAIR). NO developer EVER had to ask me to make ANY change in game, they even changed the server files as they see fit. So I had NO WAY to keep development of TMW in stagnation.
So I repeat myself:
.:WildX:. wrote:
o11c wrote:
  • ElvenProgrammer, as the owner of the domain, has final authority over major decisions.
So him being completely inactive for over 4 years is not a problem to you? If you started asking Elven permission for every major change to the game and he didn't reply to you, you'd probably have to kick him out as well. The only difference is that you directly bypass his permission every time (except for when you kicked Platyna out, that time you just convinced him that she was completely inactive and TMW was about to die in order to get a murmured "yes" out of his mouth).
After all, if Platyna was the community leader, and you keep saying that Elven and Bjorn were still relevant at the time of the move, you should have asked their permission for every content update or anything else related to development, just as you asked Platyna's permission for anything that is related to the community (like rules). I bet it would have taken them much more than 3 weeks to reply to your questions.


There are two alternatives: you either kicked her out because you wanted to be devs and GMs at the same time (which seems stupid and unlikely), or because she takes too long to reply to your question because she's busy with her life. Neither of these things seem a good enough reason to me. "Real life comes first", as Frost said when Elven was too busy with his own stuff to actually help with the move. I was there.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

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.:WildX:. wrote:Anything else you didn't need to ask permission for, as Platyna herself said:
Platyna wrote: 5. And now to deny the biggest lie ever: after I agreed to not interfere with development and Bjorn and Elven agreed not to interfere with community and administration (that was in 2007 AFAIR). NO developer EVER had to ask me to make ANY change in game, they even changed the server files as they see fit. So I had NO WAY to keep development of TMW in stagnation.

Just because Platyna says something doesn't mean it's true. In fact, statistically, it's probably a lie. In particular, in this case, it's an outright lie: we many times asked Platyna for some sort of change on the server, and if we were lucky we got a response a year later (and often if we did get a response, it looked like she didn't even read the request body, just the title). Granted, in many cases we stopped bothering to ask once it was obvious we wouldn't get a satisfactory response. That's called intelligence: the ability to observe the environment around you and predict future results based on prior observations.

Also, TMW is more than just development (If you want development with no playerbase, you might be thinking of ManaServ). Though, Platyna did manage to interfere with that too.
.:WildX:. wrote:So I repeat myself:
.:WildX:. wrote:
o11c wrote:
  • ElvenProgrammer, as the owner of the domain, has final authority over major decisions.
So him being completely inactive for over 4 years is not a problem to you? If you started asking Elven permission for every major change to the game and he didn't reply to you, you'd probably have to kick him out as well. The only difference is that you directly bypass his permission every time (except for when you kicked Platyna out, that time you just convinced him that she was completely inactive and TMW was about to die in order to get a murmured "yes" out of his mouth).
After all, if Platyna was the community leader, and you keep saying that Elven and Bjorn were still relevant at the time of the move, you should have asked their permission for every content update or anything else related to development, just as you asked Platyna's permission for anything that is related to the community (like rules). I bet it would have taken them much more than 3 weeks to reply to your questions.
There's something major you're missing here: Elven is *not* coming out of a void here. He *was* around in the past, so he knows exactly what Platyna is like.
Despite Platyna's claims, no one here has a low enough will save to be vulnerable to mind control.

Also, Elven's position is not a position that requires constant contact for every little issue.
.:WildX:. wrote:There are two alternatives: you either kicked her out because you wanted to be devs and GMs at the same time (which seems stupid and unlikely), or because she takes too long to reply to your question because she's busy with her life. Neither of these things seem a good enough reason to me. "Real life comes first", as Frost said when Elven was too busy with his own stuff to actually help with the move. I was there.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
We didn't kick her out because we wanted to be devs and GMs at the same time, but because of her terrible method of handling that (and every other) problem.
The only time I'm ever aware Platyna actually changed her mind on something was after we "creatively reinterpreted" the botting rule based on a single word she said (when the debate was first raised, she said outright that botting was permitted, but then we demonstrated that everyone was happier with botting not allowed, and the one thing Platyna care about is people worshipping her).

Sure, "real life comes first", but that's why we don't want too much concentration of power. Often we suggested to Platyna that something wasn't working, but she refused to change anything, if she replied at all. With the new system, the vast majority of responsibilities are spread across multiple people, so we're not vulnerable to any individual being caught up in real life.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Platyna »

Keep lying o11c, there is no single thread on forums after memorable 2007 where a developer had to ask me for permission to develop anything.

And there are several threads where developers argue about "no devs as GMs rule".

Regards.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor »

o11c wrote: We didn't kick her out because we wanted to be devs and GMs at the same time, but because of her terrible method of handling that (and every other) problem.
She said "no". What was so terrible about that?
o11c wrote: The only time I'm ever aware Platyna actually changed her mind on something was after we "creatively reinterpreted" the botting rule based on a single word she said (when the debate was first raised, she said outright that botting was permitted, but then we demonstrated that everyone was happier with botting not allowed, and the one thing Platyna care about is people worshipping her).
Another way of looking at that was that she changed her mind on this issue, in order to please the players. What is so bad about that?
frost wrote: GMs, admins, and lead devs all agreed that the move was necessary in order for TMW to survive. Note that I say "necessary" not "desireable."
From what I've seen, very few senior staff felt the move was necessary in order for TMW to survive, as in an "either it's Platyna or us situation." I've only seen o11c clearly make this declaration, and maybe frost. Most of the others have been less committed to this course of action. It seems the rest saw the writing on the wall, and were more loyal to o11c and frost than Platyna, and saw them as more critical to the project, so they went along with it.

Yes, Platyna's acerbic nature made it easier, and some older inactive ex-admins (now TMW advisors) may have had some old scores to settle with her as well. But even with all that, it's disingenuous to blanket state that all the senior staff saw this as necessary for TMW's survival. History won't see it that way. This will be seen as a forceful regime change, the first forced regime change in TMW's history, resulting from an intractable conflict between strong personalities.

Now to be honest, you all know I support democratic and constitutional rule over Platyna or the TMWC, not from lack of respect, but rather because it has some hope to be a unifying and fair force, and a better more sustainable form of governance, not to mention being very radical and ground-breaking for the MOG community, of which most is still mired in the equivalent of feudal Europe or perhaps Napoleon's France.

I respect Platyna's acerbic admin style. Note that acerbic means both harsh and forthright. I also respect the development and enforcement work done by the TMWC members. But to be honest, I think that development and enforcement work is what attracted them into staff positions originally, and is what suits them best. Platyna is gifted as an administrator, yes very harsh, but also very forthright. I wish more people saw that as a positive trait.

If any effort at democracy and constitution is doomed to fail, which I regret, then I will always support Platyna, even though she, like any human, has certainly made mistakes. Keep in mind that Platyna came into her position not by overthrowing any previous administration. You can argue that her personality drove some staff away, but the same is true of the current TMWC.

But this one point shines like a beacon for me: Platyna came into her authority without removing anyone else to get there. Can the TMWC say the same?
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